The Problem Isn't Ngannou or His Agent

[Rear Naked Toke]

That's probably how he got in the Fast and Furious movie.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

Not including TUF, Nate headlined 5 of his first 17 UFC fights.

Also not including TUF, Ryan Bader headlined 4 of his 19 UFC fights.

I guess you think Bader was a needle mover?

Must be why they let him go to Bellator despite him winning his last fight... in a headliner. Because he was such a needle mover.

Let him go to Bellator? He was a free agent, he could go anywhere. That was the last fight on his contract, and he chose to not sign another one with them.

Either way, Bader's style and personality didn't fit the UFC brand. But yes, he gained substantial marketability by winning his season of TUF, and he moved needles, and still does for Bellator. His skills made him their two division champ, and got him a win over Fedor, with Fedor now wanting Bader to be his retirement fight.

Why does everyone seem to think that "moving a needle" can only, and definitively, mean selling Conor level PPVs?

 

[bbandito925]

Francis getting old.
Be 40 years old before he gets out and does other things.

Tough one for both sides

He doesn’t even know how old he actually is lmfao.

they don’t keep records where he was born

 

[SalvadorAllende]

I'm not reading that.

Dana Bad or Ngannou Bad?

 

[DestinedAussie]

I agree with most of that. I'm hung up a bit on the press part, but it does happen, and can benefit both sides - at times. But UFC has always leveraged the press aspect by slandering fighters and their reps in an attempt to force pressure on them to shut up and accept the terms.

It's one thing to negotiate in a bit of a heated way, but UFC talking shit about a fighter every time a big contract is ending, instead of just simply basing it on the analytics that they generate and collect every single day got old years ago, and frankly it's just a really shitty thing to do.

When you learn contract negotiation, conventionally speaking, the key component in finalizing a deal is metrics, and that's what most (good) agencies are bringing to the table.

With the exceptions of Ali and Malki, I've never seen an MMA agent/manager push for press regarding a contract dispute, the majority of them would rather not have that type of publicity involved during negotiations. Not to mention that Ali also has no problem whatsoever throwing his own fighters under the bus to protect his own standing with the UFC, along with pushing for a good deal for one fighter, but not even attempting to for another.

I do fully agree that there's a take it or leave it attitude regarding the majority of fighters, and the intention behind it is to sway lower tiered fighters from trying to buck the system.

Yeah the take it or leave attitude is worth letting a few fighters leave to keep their costs down. I don't blame them, it is good business and fighters at that level aren't that hard to replace.

I might tune it out, but I don't remember UFC talking shit about a fighter everytime a big contract ends. In general the UFC don't talk that much other than confirm they are trying to make a deal or that they have moved on.

A great example of negotiations playing out in the press is the Conor v Mayweather fight and how successful that was generating interest. It happens in the UFC a lot around title fights too. Anytime the press is reporting on (even if they aren't seeking out the press) is good press. MMA is a business where any press is good press. What is worst than being talked badly about in MMA? Not being talked about at all!

While I agree metrics are important, most fighters can't really demonstrate if they are a draw or not if they aren't main event. That is why Conor has so much leverage because he draws so well. It is also where FW's get screwed over because there is a perception they can't draw.

 

[RicardinhoPT]

Cool thread. We all know Dana only wants to deal with puppets instead of agents but I didn't know about the CAA vs WME thing

 

[jumasterflex]

we hate dana

I dunno he has one of the largest and most annoying fan base , pass of Dana and the whole ufc Fandom will be shitting on you like a port a potty

 

[MCS]

CAA was doing business with UFC long before WME ever came into it. CAA is one of the best agencies out there, WME only tops them because they've been around longer, since 1898, originally as the William Morris Agency (WMA), but both are cut from the same cloth. Both groups were trained from the exact blueprint that William Morris originated. They both have extremely good agents and world class connections in every aspect of entertainment.

Dana and CAA have always butted heads simply because they don't let the UFC walk on them like other reps do. WME coming into the mix just added fuel to the fire because they encourage it, due to their own history with CAA, which has absolutely nothing to do with the fight business.

Unfortunatey, on WMA's side, they went to shit when they merged with Endeavor Talent Agency in 2009, and the Endeavor guys essentially got control of operations as part of the merger.

Regardless of the shady ethics that WME currently employs, it completely amazes me that any UFC fighter was willing to sign for representation from WME after they bought UFC. Such a huge and obvious conflict of interest. They can promise the world in entertainment, and deliver on those promises, but you're still going to get a shit fight contract. Not to mention the 10-20 percent commission they are taking from all of your revenue streams. Insanity.

All things considered, if I was a fighter in the UFC, I would 100% want agents like this representing me. Not so much WME at this point, but only because they own UFC; realistically, they do have some of the best agents on the planet.

A lot of these guys coming in are repped by the equivalent of their girlfriend's little brother, who has absolutely zero background in the entertainment or fight industry, and the verbiage in a contract would look like a foreign language to them, but they'll sign anyway because it's the UFC. The UFC walks all over those "agents" and "managers".

GSP signed with CAA way back in the day because he knew that the UFC was taking advantage of him, and wanted a powerful entity on his side that was truly on his side. Plus it opened a lot of doors for his post-fight career. Unfortunately, a lot of fighters, including GSP, are already locked into some pretty wild terms before getting proper representation, so the reps can't really undo the damage that already exists, they can only try to mitigate future damages.

So, if you look at his history with the UFC, compared to most of the former champs, and how things have and are playing out for them, Georges is the only fighter that won the war, and a large part of that can be attributed to his relationship with CAA.

You know if for example Paradigm, who Conor is repped by, has a similar rivalry with WME than CAA does?

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Sure, but if WME wasn't benefiting from his banter with Jake, or thought it was hurting the brand, they can and would put a stop to it. Dana loves the UFC and takes it all very personally, but he doesn't have control over the UFC, or what WME will or won't allow.

The thing is none of this benefits the brand or UFC/WME. He's putting focus on how underpaid some mma fighters are getting paid compared to what he's getting paid or what boxers are getting paid. Also Jake beating UFC champions doesn't help UFC's brand, it actually hurts their brand badly with the casuals. This Jake just doing what he does best and troll and trigger people. He's been focused on Dana since he started, seems like he got offended over a comment Dana made about him early on.

Regardless if he's associated with WME I'm sure they are not happy with the comments he's making. He's basically trying to get WME/UFC to increase their expenses tremendously by saying they underpay their fighters and putting it out in public for everyone to see and for the media outlets to run with. This doesn't benefit WME/UFC in any way.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Nate has only headlined with Masdival and Conor. 2 massive ppv draws at the time.

Without those 2 he hasn't even been a co mainer. I think Nate is super popular by social media standards but, like O'Malley, most of his followers aren't buying ppv.

That's because he can't be in that position with his current ranking. Main events and co-main are usually title fights since they usually like to have 2 or more title fights on the same card. Nate has been a part of the biggest PPV's, so he does move the needle. UFC was just smart to stack the card and the match up, Nate vs Masvidal was great matchmaking for casual interest. You see the difference in PPV buys when it's Nate and Masvidal as the main event. There's usually an extra 300--600k buys compared to other cards.

 

[SuperAlly]

Is the OP just an epic essay to whine about fighter pay? Tl;dr.

When we getting the “whine about fighter pay” sub forum?

 

[UFCIsNOTRigged]

Is the OP just an epic essay to whine about fighter pay? Tl;dr.

When we getting the “whine about fighter pay” sub forum?

The OP is whining UFC fighters wouldn't participate in his "documentary" for the "fair wage" he was offering and he holds the UFC responsible for that.

The OP also doesn't seem to realize Francis is represented by a bachelor reject that had no experience as an agent prior to joining CAA. Francis is being misrepresented and its very sad to see but thats not the fault of the UFC just like it is not the fault of the UFC that the ops "very real" documentary was not made.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

This is just my own (long form) opinion, mixed with personal experiences, so I'll start with that disclaimer.

Over the years, Dana has always found an avenue to downplay a fighter's worth when it comes time to negotiate. The truth is secondary. The Diaz brothers "don't move the needle", for example.

In the case of Francis, I believe it has very little to do with the fighter himself, other than him being told what he's actually worth by people outside of the UFC's influence that do know what he's actually worth, and more to do with Dana & Co's long and rocky history with said people.

Francis is represented by Creative Artists Agency (CAA). For those of you that don't know, CAA has represented a lot of top UFC fighters over the years, starting long before the WME buyout.

Also, CAA and WME have been bitter rivals since the formation of CAA, by five former WME agents, in 1975.

Some of the most notable names on CAA's MMA roster have included, but are not limited to: Cain Velasquez, Rory MacDonald, Georges St. Pierre (and his coach, Firas Zahabi), the Shevchenko's, Joanna Jedrzejczyk, TJ Dillashaw, Kevin Lee, and Tim Kennedy.

Since the beginning of CAA's dealings with UFC, there have been quite a few bumps in the road when it comes time to negotiate a new contract for a lot of CAA's most popular fighters. The biggest example obviously being GSP, and a constant one since they began representing him all the way back in 2008.

Dana recently stated that he places the majority of blame on Ngannou's agent and agency in not easily being able to come to terms on a new deal. His claim is that "this is what happens when you get a guy that's repped by an agency that isn't soley an MMA agency; they have no idea what they're talking about".

However, he doesn't seem to feel the same way about the roster of UFC fighters repped by WME's own talent division, whom had only one fighter on their roster prior to purchasing UFC - Ronda Rousey, signed shortly after her first UFC fight in 2013.

Not to mention that he's dismissing the fact that, although CAA represents all forms of entertainers (as does WME), they have been representing UFC/MMA fighters (prospects, title contenders, and champions) for more than a decade. At this point, CAA is very familiar with the business side of MMA and UFC, and very much know what they are talking about.

In all fairness, Dana has dealt with plenty of agencies outside (and within) the MMA bubble that are content to just ride the current. So, those agents and managers helped set his expectations.

For example, I was lined up to film and distribute a documentary series that featured, individually, some of the cast members from season one of The Ultimate Fighter, well known UFC fighters, as well a number of non-UFC fighters. It was set to begin production shortly after the TUF 1 finale.

The first TUF cast member I had on board was Stephan Bonnar. When Stephan and I first began talking about it, money wasn't really on his mind; he had just been awarded a "six figure contract" and was simply interested in the concept of my proposed series. He was going to be fairly compensated, and he knew that.

A couple months after Stephan and I started talking, he was approached by and signed a deal with a major sports agency - Sports Entertainment Group (SEG). Stephan gave his agent my contact info, and I received a call shortly after.

Stephan had already told me how much he was being paid to fight, so I wasn't surprised when the agent was looking for similar numbers for Stephan's involvement in my series. He was the first MMA fighter that they had signed, and he was going into his first UFC contract, so the agent didn't have much else to base his expectations on. He was content to just ride the current.

I was fine with the numbers from the agent. In fact, they were actually less than what Stephan would've been paid by me for his involvement in the series. Based on my own conversations with UFC, to secure various permissions and licenses for my series - which did eventually get worked out - they barely wiggle, let alone budge. That was when UFC was just getting back on the map, I can't even imagine what those conversations would be like now.

Anyway, I digress, I'm not here to talk about the series, that's just an example to point out, from my own personal experience, the types of "MMA agents" that Dana is comparing CAA to. And although SEG fit that bill, they no longer rep MMA fighters, and haven't for a long time.

Either way, he likes the ones that are willing to just go with the flow to ensure a consistently solid relationship with UFC itself, but CAA has never been that way, and isn't willing to just accept whatever offer hits the table.

Now, one could argue that CAA playing hardball has a negative impact on their fighters, but with the exceptions of a few non-CAA fighters like Ronda, Conor, Anderson, and Jon, one could also argue that it has lead to quite a few of CAA's fighters having rather successful MMA careers (opportunities).


TLDR - The majority of heated negotiations and fall outs with top fighters that the UFC has had over the years have revolved around Dana's 13 plus year pissing match with CAA, further escalated by WME's purchase of UFC; mostly due to CAA being concerned more with their clients' best interests than those of UFC and WME. Which is exactly what anyone, in any industry, should fully expect from the agency that represents them.

Big thanks to anyone that read the whole thing.

Fun Fact: For all of you that are unsure why Dana is giving Jake Paul so much attention - Jake's "Warlock" manager that Dana mentioned recently is UFC's former Chief Financial Officer (2011-2016), and both Jake and his brother, Logan, are clients of WME's talent division. Logan was signed to CAA prior to joining his brother on WME's roster - It's all relative.

Great read man and very informative, you lazy fucks should read the whole thing!

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

You know if for example Paradigm, who Conor is repped by, has a similar rivalry with WME than CAA does?

CAA and WME's is a very unique situation as far as agencies go, given that it's mostly based around the founders of CAA being former WME agents, so there's a lot of internal history there. It's also a very long history, with WME originating as Willam Morris Agency (WMA) all the way back in 1898, as the first and largest entertainment agency; It more or less doesn't exist any more.

It became William Morris Endeavor (WME) in 2009 when it merged with Endeavor Talent Agency, and was renamed once again as Endeavor in 2017. I still refer to it as WME here because that's what most MMA fans recognize it as, due to its involvement with UFC.

CAA itself came along much later, in 1975, after disputes between WMA and some of their top agents.

Paradigm launched in 1992 and has never, technically, been affiliated with any form of the William Morris Agency. I'm sure they've cooperated many times over the years in regards to film, television, and music regarding the talent that each represent.

If there has ever been any type of rift between them, it's never been made public, or went any deeper than standard competition within the same lines of work. CAA and WME's dislike of one another is many levels deeper.

Conor's dealings with Paradigm largely came in part as a brand partnership, as they don't generally deal in the MMA industry, or conventional talent bookings. Overall, it had a lot to do with his mainstream appeal, and ability to sell a lot of whiskey.

They specialize in getting charismatic personalities to help other brands market their products. For example, Keith Powers and Old Spice Deodorant. If you've seen an Old Spice commercial in the last 10 years or so, that's Keith Powers, and Paradigm brokered that deal.

Sorry for such a long winded answer to your question, by the way.

To get fully back on your point - Conor has more or less been given anything he's ever asked for in relation to the UFC, and Dana openly admits that and is kind of proud of it.

If UFC, WME, or Dana, had any issues with Conor's reps, we would surely know about it.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

The thing is none of this benefits the brand or UFC/WME. He's putting focus on how underpaid some mma fighters are getting paid compared to what he's getting paid or what boxers are getting paid. Also Jake beating UFC champions doesn't help UFC's brand, it actually hurts their brand badly with the casuals. This Jake just doing what he does best and troll and trigger people. He's been focused on Dana since he started, seems like he got offended over a comment Dana made about him early on.

Regardless if he's associated with WME I'm sure they are not happy with the comments he's making. He's basically trying to get WME/UFC to increase their expenses tremendously by saying they underpay their fighters and putting it out in public for everyone to see and for the media outlets to run with. This doesn't benefit WME/UFC in any way.

It's risk versus reward, and the reward is much greater than the risk, because there is no risk.

It's very well known in the MMA community that UFC fighters are underpaid. That's been out in the open for a long time, there's no risk in that being echoed over and over again, even to casuals by influential figures like Jake. It will do very little to change much of anything.

UFC fighters themselves have complained about low pay for almost 20 years. What's changed? You also have to take two things into consideration - WME makes a lot of money from Jake, and there's no such thing as bad press.

Casuals watching Jake knock out former, aged and on the verge of retirement, UFC fighters does not hurt the UFC's brand in any kind of way. The UFC parted ways with them, as they were deemed to no longer be UFC caliber.

Take all of the crazy things Jones and McGregor have (allegedly) done over the years, while under contract with UFC, all of them, every detail, give it a bit of thought, then tell me that you are actually convinced that Jake Paul can hurt the UFC's brand or marketability. If those two can't do it, he can't either.

Jake Paul alone is not going to force UFC to raise their expenses, no matter what he says.

All things considered, there is literally nothing happening regarding Jake and Dana that doesn't benefit WME. Jake bad mouthing Dana/UFC puts money in WME's bank account, Dana/UFC bad mouthing Jake puts money in WME's bank account. That's a lot to gain, with nothing to lose.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

Is the OP just an epic essay to whine about fighter pay? Tl;dr.

When we getting the “whine about fighter pay” sub forum?

It has pretty much nothing to do with fighter pay, minus the TLDR.

 

[spinup]

The OP also doesn't seem to realize Francis is represented by a bachelor reject that had no experience as an agent prior to joining CAA. Francis is being misrepresented and its very sad to see but thats not the fault of the UFC just like it is not the fault of the UFC that the ops "very real" documentary was not made.

Yeah sure... the "bachelor reject" is a former UFC employee who was negociating sponsorship deals and has a college degree in sports management. He didn't get hired by CAA for his bachelor experience.

Now compare that to Ali Abdelaziz whose prior experience was to be a FBI islamist snitch reject and a failed mma fighter.

 

[UFCIsNOTRigged]

Yeah sure... the "bachelor reject" is a former UFC employee who was negociating sponsorship deals and has a college degree in sports management. He didn't get hired by CAA for his bachelor experience.

Now compare that to Ali Abdelaziz whose prior experience was to be a FBI islamist snitch reject and a failed mma fighter.

What exactly does selling sponsorships have to do with acting as an agent for a professional athlete? Nothing which is why both of his HW champions (Ngannou & Bhullar) have been disrespected and had interim belts made while he "advised them".

Maybe the problem is not the UFC or ONE but him?

You can feel how you want about Ali but he has leveraged his very strong relationship with the UFC into upward mobility for his clients with the requisite talent.

Its not a coincidence Marvin Vettori went from fighting Karl Roberson in June 2020 to fighting for the MW belt a year later against a champion who had already beaten him.

Also, does anyone think Cody Garbrandt would not have been cut from the UFC after being posterized by Kai Kara-France, if not for Ali being his agent?

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

The OP is whining UFC fighters wouldn't participate in his "documentary" for the "fair wage" he was offering and he holds the UFC responsible for that.

The OP also doesn't seem to realize Francis is represented by a bachelor reject that had no experience as an agent prior to joining CAA. Francis is being misrepresented and its very sad to see but thats not the fault of the UFC just like it is not the fault of the UFC that the ops "very real" documentary was not made.

Yes, this exactly. Dammit man, ya got me.. Shucks.

 

[oldschoolmmafan]

Nooo please noooo. Stop merging posts, we miss fresh perspectives. Just let us click the ones we want and ignore the ones we don't.

This.