The Myth of the "change" in GSP's style

[CRuck1980]

Look at the Hughes fight watch how gsp follows him to the ground and goes for the finish after dropping him with a head kick. Then watch the Shields fight and notice that after dropping Jake with the same kick he does the exact opposite

Edit

And you can't argue that he was afraid of Shields ground game. Because Hughes had actually finished him by arm bar d

Hughes submitted him in a grappling exchange and in the second fight GSP kept it standing and avoided grappling with Hughes. GSP hurt Shields, but Shields was still fighting. When GSP kicked Matt Hughes, Hughes was more than hurt, he was done and all GSP had to do was finish. Two completely different situations

 

[whoknew]

before the serra fight he had 3 decisions and 10 finishes 77% finishing rate

post serra he has 7 decisions and 3 finishes. 30% finishing rate.

pretty much sums it up.

You could make the arguement that the level of competition between those first 10 fights and his last 13 fights is greatly elevated in the latter 13.

But if you look at anderson, aldo, and jones finshing rate in title fights they blow GSP away. So either GSP isnt as talented compared to the rest of his division as the others, or his competition is that much better than the others (hard to say with jones finishing rampage, machida, shogun, belfort...all former champs), or the last alternative is that GSP plays it safe.

So pick one....less talented than the others....or playing it safe.

Or maybe he doesn't have the KO power of an Anderson or isn't the sub specialist Jones has shown himself to be.

Seriously....this should be a no-brainer

It was much easier for St-Pierre to smash and sub lesser talent coming up the ranks, but now that he's top dog he's facing BIGGER and DEFINITELY more talented opponents. The opponents he faces today basically cross train different disciplines like Georges... unlike before. His opponents are more defensive minded when they face the champ, nor does anyone takes him for granted anymore. If they weren't ready for him offensively they definitely were defensively.
Or we could look at the fact that everyone keeps comparing Georges to KO and sub specialist in heavier weight classes. That's not really a fair comparison when you understand that heavier fighters inherently finish fighters at a higher more frequent rate. But hey, don't that fact stop you from hating.... you're likely to do it even if GSP KOed his next opponent.

"Yeah...he knocked him out, but it took more than 1 punch.":icon_neut

"I don't count that KO, it was a head kick. He hasn't been able to knock anyone out with his hands since JH."
(even though that was a TKO)

 

[Dezolis**]

What's wrong with changing styles? Why is that a bad thing?

I think stiffer competition makes any fighter look like they've changed styles, intentional or not. GSP is still winning, that's all that matters.

 

[CRuck1980]

"Yeah...he knocked him out, but it took more than 1 punch.":icon_neut

"I don't count that KO, it was a head kick. He hasn't been able to knock anyone out with his hands since JH."
(even though that was a TKO)

Exactly! Around the time destroyed Hughes and Serra, all people talked about what how he doesn't stand and trade anymore.

 

[whoknew]

Yes and no. He admits that he tries to fight smarter so he doesn't get injured or take damage, which is generally a good idea. But when he was fighting Shields (may have been Kos) he kept headhunting with an overhand right throughout the fight. He was legitimately trying to end the fight. He tries to use whatever weakness his opponent has against him while not risking himself in the process. Being as good as he is with his ground work, it's no surprise he takes people down more often than not. He also stays active with trying to sub them, or GnP. If he was a LnP fighter it would be one thing, but he stays active and typically does damage.

Correct... that was the shields fight. He kept throwing that ugly right even after the eye poke.:icon_lol:

 

[Dezolis**]

Or maybe he doesn't have the KO power of an Anderson or isn't the sub specialist Jones has shown himself to be.

Seriously....this should be a no-brainer

It was much easier for St-Pierre to smash and sub lesser talent coming up the ranks, but now that he's top dog he's facing BIGGER and DEFINITELY more talented opponents. The opponents he faces today basically cross train different disciplines like Georges... unlike before. His opponents are more defensive minded when they face the champ, nor does anyone takes him for granted anymore. If they weren't ready for him offensively they definitely were defensively.
Or we could look at the fact that everyone keeps comparing Georges to KO and sub specialist in heavier weight classes. That's not really a fair comparison when you understand that heavier fighters inherently finish fighters at a higher more frequent rate.

Great post, agree completely. I would also add 'bad luck' and 'technical mistake' to the list - the Kos II fight should've been stopped + the eye poke in the Shields fight, and GSP should've broken Hardy's arm.

 

[AP_RESURRECTION]

its not that his style totally changed, its more that he relies much more on wrestling and top control than finishes / passing guard etc.

hes been fighting tougher guys - if he fought a lesser opponent he would run through them just like before

but i think hes also learned to fight smarter and to fight in a way where he'l likely win by decision and maybe even stoppage if the guy breaks before 5 rounds are up

 

[whoknew]

If you want to see how Georges style has changed watch his fight against Karo.

The 'no risk taking' Georges you see now is nowhere to be seen. Rogan keept talking about how dangerous Karo was on the ground the whole fight but Georges didn't seem to give a shit.

True, but you also seen Georges more on the defense in that fight. No question he was dealing out some damage but he was getting caught in positions that he wouldn't now. That's boils down to experience...no way he would have got caught in any of those positions back then if he seen them coming.

seriously you think GSP would have allowed himself pre-serra to get caught in anything if he knew/felt it coming?:redface:

 

[whoknew]

Great post, agree completely. I would also add 'bad luck' and 'technical mistake' to the list - the Kos II fight should've been stopped + the eye poke in the Shields fight, and GSP should've broken Hardy's arm.

my thoughts as well

 

[facedancer]

I agree with TS that GSP hasn't really changed, his opponents have gotten better. Same view with Fedor. Both guys are basically the same fighters working n tougher divisions than they were before.

I hate the tougher opponent argument. He's a champion...they're all facing top competition. Not all of them are going on a several year stretch without finishing an opponnent. And lay off the BS about WW being the strongest, bc all of his unstoppable opponents have been stopped by lesser fighters than GSP, and all within a relevant timeframe.

If he's not a finisher and that's not his style or strategy then so be it, but stop trying to argue that finishing his opponents is a top priority and all these external factors are preventing that from happening. It's ludacris and delusional.

 

[StikyIcky]

First off, if you hate GSP's style that's fine by me. To each his own.

This is aimed at people who say he changed his style after the Serra fight. I just rewatched his first UFC fight. Looks pretty much like vintage GSP to me: dominate a guy physically, wear him down, and kick his ass.

Don't get me wrong: I love to see him finish. But he's so superior an athlete and fighter that he's simply been able to decimate his opponents, even without finishes, from the very beginning.

If you think another current welterweight is better, you are delusional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNv4HkP47t8

He has said it himself in numerous interviews that he has changed his style to a low risk approach because of the Serra fight.

Which makes you a fucking moron if you are a GSP fan.

 

[CRuck1980]

I hate the tougher opponnent argument. He's a champion...they're all facing top competition. Not all of them are going on a several year stretch without finishing an opponnent. And lay off the BS about WW being the strongest, bc all of his unstoppable opponents have been stopped by lesser fighters than GSP, and all within a relevant timeframe.

It doesn't matter if he's the champion and what OTHER champions are doing against OTHER fighters is irrelevant. The point is if you put GSP against the guys he used to fight when he was finishing more consistently, he'd do the same thing to them he did before.

 

[whoknew]

I hate the tougher opponnent argument. He's a champion...they're all facing top competition. Not all of them are going on a several year stretch without finishing an opponnent. And lay off the BS about WW being the strongest, bc all of his unstoppable opponents have been stopped by lesser fighters than GSP, and all within a relevant timeframe.

I notice your argument gets used alot. I think people may be slightly bias about which divisions is the strongest....give you that. But I vehemently disagree on the whole (those fighters were stopped by other opponents). This may be true but when he (Georges) faced those same fighters they were a hell of a lot more defensive minded facing him than they were facing the guys who stopped them.

If I'm wrong can someone post the videos of these fighters going balls out against Georges just like they did when they lost to those other guys.

Side by side please.... place videos of them against GSP and those other guys.

 

[Dezolis**]

The point is if you put GSP against the guys he used to fight when he was finishing more consistently, he'd do the same thing to them he did before.

Definitely. The Gap between GSP and the rest of the division has lessened. GSP used to be 2 notches above the rest, now it's like 1. WW is looking more and more like LW, very deep talent pool. It might take a few extra years for that to happen to the higher weight classes. GSP will have his hands full with Hendricks, Rory and possibly Marquardt - no easy fight there even with GSP as the favorite. I think WW has become the most exciting division.

 

[whoknew]

It doesn't matter if he's the champion and what OTHER champions are doing against OTHER fighters is irrelevant. The point is if you put GSP against the guys he used to fight when he was finishing more consistently, he'd do the same thing to them he did before.

/thread

 

[I Know It All]

First off, if you hate GSP's style that's fine by me. To each his own.

This is aimed at people who say he changed his style after the Serra fight. I just rewatched his first UFC fight. Looks pretty much like vintage GSP to me: dominate a guy physically, wear him down, and kick his ass.

Don't get me wrong: I love to see him finish. But he's so superior an athlete and fighter that he's simply been able to decimate his opponents, even without finishes, from the very beginning.

If you think another current welterweight is better, you are delusional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNv4HkP47t8

It's not really a change in style, it's a lack of killer instinct. He's still dominating opponents. He just lacks the will to finish. If he gets someone hurt, he will lay on top and drop short elbows instead of going for the finish. Other than that, he fights the same way as always. Plus, his opponents are taking low risks as well. They don't want to make a slip up and get finished quickly, so they fight defensively. GSP takes all of the blame because he is such a dominate champion.

 

[facedancer]

It doesn't matter if he's the champion and what OTHER champions are doing against OTHER fighters is irrelevant. The point is if you put GSP against the guys he used to fight when he was finishing more consistently, he'd do the same thing to them he did before.

What does that mean? I'm sure he could finish just about any Cage Rage fighter you put in front of him, just as I'm sure he could finish most B level fighters in the UFC who don't pose a threat to him. The point is, fighters who do pose a threat (and some that don't, IE Dan Hardy) are not being approached with the primary objective of finishing the fight.

Again, this is fine and it's clearly highly efective. I just don't understand the purpose of arguing that he is indeed a finisher. I could argue that BJ Penn actually has a fantastic gas tank at WW...but I would be completely full of shit.

 

[whoknew]

What does that mean? I'm sure he could finish just about any Cage Rage fighter you put in front of him, just as I'm sure he could finish most B level fighters in the UFC who don't pose a threat to him. The point is, fighters who do pose a threat (and some that don't, IE Dan Hardy) are not being approached with the primary objective of finishing the fight.

Again, this is fine and it's clearly highly efective. I just don't understand the purpose of arguing that he is indeed a finisher. I could argue that BJ Penn actually has a fantastic gas tank at WW...but I would be completely full of shit.

didn't he unsuccessfully try to finish Hardy?

 

[Blackbelch**]

The answer to this is 3 round fights vs 5 round fights.

 

[Saskatoonmike**]

I hate the tougher opponent argument. He's a champion...they're all facing top competition. Not all of them are going on a several year stretch without finishing an opponnent. And lay off the BS about WW being the strongest, bc all of his unstoppable opponents have been stopped by lesser fighters than GSP, and all within a relevant timeframe.

If he's not a finisher and that's not his style or strategy then so be it, but stop trying to argue that finishing his opponents is a top priority and all these external factors are preventing that from happening. It's ludacris and delusional.

this just shows you do not understand the argument.

Everyone GSP, Anderson, JDS or any other champ fights and does not finish will almost certainly be finished by others unless that person retires or goes on to be undefeated champ.

it is simply pointless to point at the ones he did not finish being finished by others as a criticism as it applies to everyone, even great finishers like Anderson. It is AUTOMATIC that will happen.

the arguments is about the percent of their fights those opponents will be finished. Better quality opponents get finished LESS. not never, just less.

if GSP is fighting a better quality of comp that gets finished far LESS then that matters.