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The most liberal pope since Jesus?

dontsnitch said:
I would question your premise that it is God's mandate. I would also question that God approves of man's wrong doings.
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Who's mandate is it then?

And does not silence equal complicity?
 
LionExMachina said:
Who's mandate is it then?

And does not silence equal complicity?
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I don't know for sure who's mandate it is, but it is obvious that man has had a large role in it, perhaps entirely man made.

I don't know who is silent, but I would agree they are guilty.
 
LionExMachina said:
Ah....so then is the pope the final authority or...?
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He's the final living authority, yeah, but there's a whole hierarchy of teaching authority underneath him called the Magisterium, made up of the bishops, priests and theologians within the Church. They're informed by the Bible but not limited to it, which is arguably a much saner way of doing things since modern life is extremely different from the historical context from which the Bible emerged. A good example of a religion trying to just interpret scripture literally without a singularly-respected teaching authority would be the religion of Islam. And they run into some problems.
 
uppercutbus said:
What is his stance on gays and condoms?

Lots of claims here. Bet it's just some vague smooth talking and ppl are intepreting it as "supporting gays".
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It's the vatican way of trying to gain some fans. They know it being homophobic and anti contraception is becoming less socially acceptable. So, they know it's in their interest to act like they're becoming more modernized.
 
LionExMachina said:
Do you think that sexual molestation of children in schools excuses the fact that the church, which is the self-declared moral lodestone for humanity has raped children for centuries?
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No, nor do I (or would any sane person) claim that it does. My post was directed at you and only went so far as to paint you as a "Church-basher". The sexual molestation of children is hardly a problem exclusive to the Church, and the Church is not the no1 purveyor of molestation, or one that has the monopoly of treating children with sanctity (last I checked, schools were the institution that the society desigated as the moral vertical in the field of forming children into functional adults). Yet at the mere mention of the pope (in a thread discussing his liberal tendencies), you burst with the righteous flames of justice, as a kind of a anti-kid-diddling Ghost Rider.

My guess is that you're one of the people that get educated on a subject only by skimming through news headings, which would account for your indoctrination by the scandal-driven media. While even one occurance of child molestation is too much, I think you're not really barking at the biggest perp.

According to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, here are the numbers of accusations involving a current minor that were even deemed "credible" each year from 2005 to 2013:

Year / # of accusations

2013 - 10

2012 - 6

2011 - 7

2010 - 8

2009 - 6

2008 - 10

2007 - 4

2006 - 14

2005 - 9
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http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/2011-annual-report.pdf

And if the besmirching of innoscence really strikes a nerve with you that much, I wonder in how many education threads you protested molestation, or in how many threads on family matters you went so far to point out that most molestation occured at the hands of relatives, or in how many US army threads you wrote on the subject of children as collateral damage in conflicts - all of which, I would wager yield much greater numbers than the ones above.

Also, gonna need source on "CENTURIES OF RAPE!".
 
dontsnitch said:
I think it really depends what you mean by this.
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I mean there are no verses within the Bible saying listen only to scripture and don't listen to the teachers. There are plenty examples of the apostles being sent out to teach with authority, though.
 
Ruprecht said:
I just googled and read a bit, and I don't think he supports gays. He's just backed away from active political opposition. As a bishop he opposed gay marriage in Argentina. The closest I've read to support was his statement, "Who are we to judge?"
Also it was Pope Benedict that said condoms were OK to prevent disease (but not for contraception, which seems a little vague). Pope Francis is still conservative on contraception issues, although he's said being a good Catholic doesn't mean breeding like rabbits.
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benedict didn't say that. He said the exact opposite.

Pope tells Africa 'condoms wrong'

Pope Benedict XVI, who is making his first papal visit to Africa, has said that handing out condoms is not the answer in the fight against HIV/Aids.

The pontiff, who preaches marital fidelity and abstinence, said the practice only increased the problem.

HIV/Aids was, he argued, "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem".

The solution lay, he said, in a "spiritual and human awakening" and "friendship for those who suffer".
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm
 
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Forkfoot said:
I mean there are no verses within the Bible saying listen only to scripture and don't listen to the teachers. There are plenty examples of the apostles being sent out to teach with authority, though.
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The teachers teach from the Bible though, and their ideas should be congruent with the Bible. The apostles were sent out by Christ, and were taught by Christ, they did not teach a doctrine that was man made.
 
dontsnitch said:
The teachers teach from the Bible though, and their ideas should be congruent with the Bible. The apostles were sent out by Christ, and were taught by Christ, they did not teach a doctrine that was man made.
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Depends what you mean by "from the Bible". Jesus was telling people with authority how to interpret Jewish scripture. He never said "Yeah just read it yourself and let the Holy Spirit guide you, you'll be fine." That mentality is a very recent Protestant invention. Throughout the Gospels Jesus was telling people with authority "Yeah here's what that means". And that was common in his time; rabbis were always discussing and debating the meaning of scripture and telling people how to interpret it. And Jesus had his disciples go out and preach, not just scripture but the stuff he'd taught them, which were not at the time considered scripture.
 
Forkfoot said:
Depends what you mean by "from the Bible". Jesus was telling people with authority how to interpret Jewish scripture. He never said "Yeah just read it yourself and let the Holy Spirit guide you, you'll be fine." That mentality is a very recent Protestant invention. Throughout the Gospels Jesus was telling people with authority "Yeah here's what that means". And that was common in his time; rabbis were always discussing and debating the meaning of scripture and telling people how to interpret it. And Jesus had his disciples go out and preach, not just scripture but the stuff he'd taught them, which were not at the time considered scripture.
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Yes, but now all the teachings of Christ are what makes up the NT, so while we have to discern what the Bible teaches, we don't need to add teachings to the Bible. Scripture is complete, when Christ said "it is finished", it was finished.

Opening the door only leads to Joseph Smith type people to add entirely new tenets and doctrines.

If you're implying certain hermeneutics, and discernment of the scripture, then I'm with you. If you're implying teaching things not found in scripture, then I question where these new teachings come from.
 
Ruprecht said:
Not so much, in terms of the number of people and the effect his opinions can have.
To act like the Pope doesn't have real political and religious/cultural influence is... naive at best.
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Stalin infamously asked, "The Pope? How many Divisions can he field?"

Uncle Joe was many things, but I never heard of anyone accusing him of being naive.:icon_twis
 
Ask any honest Italian what they think about the Vatican and they'll tell you they're nothing more than the religious mafia. That's what my Italian friends tell me.
 
dontsnitch said:
Yes, but now all the teachings of Christ are what makes up the NT, so while we have to discern what the Bible teaches, we don't need to add teachings to the Bible. Scripture is complete, when Christ said "it is finished", it was finished.
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Yeah it's not about adding onto scripture, it's about figuring out how the seeds of truth in scripture are to be sewn and grown in daily life. I was just saying that there's nothing in scripture saying don't believe anything that's not in scripture, nor is there anything saying don't look to teachings or authority when trying to figure out how to live your faith.

dontsnitch said:
If you're implying certain hermeneutics, and discernment of the scripture, then I'm with you. If you're implying teaching things not found in scripture, then I question where these new teachings come from.
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They come from the teaching authority, which in Catholicism does include stuff not in scripture, like a lot of the Mary stuff for example. It doesn't say in scripture that she was immaculately conceived or that her body was assumed without decaying; that came from the teaching authority of the Church. You might disagree with the Church's non-scriptural doctrine, but you can't say that it's prohibited by scripture itself.
 
KnightTemplar said:
Stalin infamously asked, "The Pope? How many Divisions can he field?"

Uncle Joe was many things, but I never heard of anyone accusing him of being naive.:icon_twis
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The ultimate gangster.
 
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