The kickfighting establishment is rotten to the core

[jtwarwagon4life]

only half.




you should interpret it, as I wrote it. it's pretty straight foward.



all the japanese you are talking about are mostly small regional japanese fighters training in thailand at that time trying and working their way up the rankings. that's not compareable to already big established thais in the muay thai scene getting huge opportunities in kickboxing.

cases like that are unprecedented in muay thai.

I was quoting Shadess.

So, as I already said, it makes sense to bring in Thais to fight in kickboxing at the highest level, they'll succeed, there is a precedent. Bring in foreign fighters who are unproven to fight at the highest level in Thailand and you're just wasting your money. Until the Japanese guys have proved that they can hang with decent opposition, they don't deserve a shot.

Not really. Umeno was brought in to fight Sekson and Yodlekpet, Dekkers was brought in to fight a bunch of guys, Fujiwara, Bill and others. And this is totally appropriate because they are some of the only guys who can consistently compete at that level and had proved as much prior to being brought in.

 

[Yodsanan]

A lot of these excuses don't cut it imo



They focus on japanese talent but they also fly in foreign talent like Dahlbeck, Bennoui, Javier Hernandez, Hakim Hamech, Massaro etc. A lot of their foreigners they get are mid tier level foreign muay thai fighters. They even have the weight classes perfectly suited for thai fighters but to me it's clear that they don't want another Kaew type fighter dominating the division. I say this as someone that enjoys K1's recent events.....

that's basically what I said between the lines. They don't bring in thai's because it's expensive to fly them in, they don't bring them in because that would be boring for the domestic japanese market. The promotion wouldn't thrive with only thai's in the division.

And 70Kg is foreign giveaway division anyway, too seem more international.

 

[Shadess]

to me it's clear that they don't want another Kaew type fighter dominating the division. I say this as someone that has enjoyed K1's recent events.....

They're sticking Gonnapar literally into every single opportunity they can.

 

[Yodsanan]

I was quoting Shadess.

So, as I already said, it makes sense to bring in Thais to fight in kickboxing at the highest level, they'll succeed, there is a precedent. Bring in foreign fighters who are unproven to fight at the highest level in Thailand and you're just wasting your money. Until the Japanese guys have proved that they can hang with decent opposition, they don't deserve a shot.

Not really. Umeno was brought in to fight Sekson and Yodlekpet, Dekkers was brought in to fight a bunch of guys, Fujiwara, Bill and others. And this is totally appropriate because they are some of the only guys who can consistently compete at that level.

Dekkers was 20 years ago and Umeno worked his way up the japanese muay thai rankings and destroyed fighters there until his managers and promoters reached out to thailand. I'm talking Kickboxers getting shots at high level muay thai.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Dekkers was 20 years ago and Umeno worked his way up the japanese muay thai rankings and destroyed fighters there until his managers and promoters reached out to thailand. I'm talking Kickboxers getting shots at high level muay thai.

But someone who's a top kickboxer is unproven by definition. They would get worked and it would be a waste of time. You know this.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Almost like they're two different sports.

But of course nonthai muay thai fighters are given a fair shake in kickboxing. Which is perverse, because they are almost never as good as their thai counterparts in muay thai and are far less likely to succeed or accomplish as much in kickboxing than Thais.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

BJJ is to sub grappling what Muay Thai is to kick fighting, but for the representation. This is obvious.

Probably even more so, as muay thai has a much deeper talent pool than BJJ.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Straight to the point honesty is bad in your world and being conned is a good thing. What's wrong with you guys? How did it feel to be fucked in the ass by the lies of Kongolo and Doumbe? And you'll be there next time to take it again.

hype > staredowns > fighting ability

Too many accept this

They basically admitted that they are a million other considerations that they put before whether someone can actually fight or not. This is why kickboxing isn't a real sport.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I'm talking Kickboxers getting shots at high level muay thai.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here? Are you talking about kickboxers getting shots in the stadiums or just kickboxers fighting thai muay thai fighters of a decent level in muay thai? The first doesn't happen for obvious reasons, there are basically no kickboxing weight classes in the divisions which are active in the stadiums, they're unproven and they wouldn't win. But with regard to the second question we see kickboxers fight good muay thai fighters in international muay thai fights all the time and they almost always lose. Which is why there is good reason to think that sticking kickboxers in there with top level muay thai fighters in the stadiums would be a total waste of everyone's times and wouldn't improve muay thai at all.

 

[Snubnoze707]

there are basically no kickboxing weight classes in the divisions which are active in the stadiums

Wait, but... nevermind.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Wait, but... nevermind.

I think you may have misread me.

 

[Crimson Glory]

I think I've seen Thais in every Kickboxing event that I have this year so far...

Seems like there is a good handful of Thai's fighting in Glory. Something that I love seeing.

There is more talent... but they all compete in weight classes that barely exist in kickboxing.

Yep. There's basically two divisions that Thai's can compete in and LW is, from what I understand, one of the least stacked divisions.

Honestly, in terms of weight classes Thai's would be more suited to MMA(particularly One Championship) as they have 115, 125 and 135.

 

[Yodsanan]

But of course nonthai muay thai fighters are given a fair shake in kickboxing. Which is perverse, because they are almost never as good as their thai counterparts in muay thai and are far less likely to succeed or accomplish as much in kickboxing than Thais.

That I can agree with, and I voiced my opinion about that before.

They basically admitted that they are a million other considerations that they put before whether someone can actually fight or not. This is why kickboxing isn't a real sport.

scructually it sure isn't the sport that muay thai ( at least in thailand ) is. but that's also sadly the reason why kickboxing will do great in the future, while muay thai will stagnate.

 

[muaydan667]

They're sticking Gonnapar literally into every single opportunity they can.

Gonnapar is like literally diet Kaew for K-1

 

[Shadess]

Gonnapar is like literally diet Kaew for K-1

Numerically he'd still raise the Thai # to at least 1,5...same "lastname" Weerasakrek.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Lol If kaew would not have pulled out against yamazaki we would have never seen gonnapar in k1. Also why is it that every foreigner in the k1 70 kg tournament has a muaythai background? Yet k1 will bring in 3 out of 4 guys with low level muay thai credentials instead of an actual proven thais who are much closer and cheaper to fly into japan

 

[Tayski]

Many kickboxing fans know this but most of them seem to be totally unbothered by it or worse when a minority of people complain (or even suggest) that kickboxing would benefit from bringing in these athlete kickboxing fan try to shout them down. Kickboxing fans and promoter are cutting off their nose to spite their face, in holding up the status quo. They don't, despite the fact that they claim to love the sport, want to see the best athletes available competing against one another.

What should we do about it Che Guevara? You got a plan to change this?

Your whine and tears on an obscure internet sub-forum aren't going to change anything.

Yes I really like to see skilled fighters, and yes most of the time Thai fighters are very skilled and bring on good fights, but at the same time do you have any grasp of what marketing and commercialism is about?

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

What should we do about it Che Guevara? You got a plan to change this?

Your whine and tears on an obscure internet sub-forum aren't going to change anything.

Yes I really like to see skilled fighters, and yes most of the time Thai fighters are very skilled and bring on good fights, but at the same time do you have any grasp of what marketing and commercialism is about?

How and where do you think these narratives started? All the bullshit about "traditional muay thai" or "Ramon Dekkers beating them all" was born and nurtured on tiny subforums the same as this, until it became fact. People significantly overestimate the size of the kickboxing community and underestimate the power which internet subforums have in creating discourse. Take a recent example in MMA. Some guy on the UG made a post about the neofoot work revolution which was taking place in MMA. Joe Rogan read it, repeated it and it became fact. I strongly suspect that Glory wouldn't have signed Petpanomrung if we hadn't been talking about him in the Thailand thread. If enough people online, on just this forum, started to create a narrative about how much kickboxing organisations like Glory could benefit from signing Thais more influential people might start to take notice and then might think about signing another. We just have to come up with different narratives which will have a positive impact on the way that Thai fighters are viewed.

What me and others are doing isn't whining, it's legitamate criticism and it has an effect. Just by pointing out the flaws in the stereotyped picture that people have of Thai fighters can have a positive impact. People will be more likely to know that Thais have won world championships and Olympic medals in boxing and so the whole "Thais can't box" narrative can start to be questioned or at least not repeated everywhere as a dogma. But if we do what you're suggesting and don't say anything, no one else is going to and the negative view of Thai fighters will just continue, unchallenged. I truly believe that, this forum has had a more positive impact in educating people about how Muay Thai really is, then any other resource I know of.

 

[Tayski]

If enough people online, on just this forum, started to create a narrative about how much kickboxing organisations like Glory could benefit from signing Thais more influential people might start to take notice and then might think about signing another. We just have to come up with different narratives which will have a positive impact on the way that Thai fighters are viewed.

Then the best thing to do is to promote those fighters by this same media you're describing. Complaining and basically accusing kickboxing organisations of being anti-Thai isn't the way to do it. If you care so much about it why don't you just promote those guys? Write some threads about them, show their fights and highlights and some contact details for the promoters to get hold of them.

That's how shit gets done.

People will be more likely to know that Thais have won world championships and Olympic medals in boxing and so the whole "Thais can't box" narrative can start to be questioned or at least not repeated everywhere as a dogma.

To be honest with you, the "Thais can't box" is not completely inaccurate considering how Muay Thai is fought and scored in the stadiums. The majority of the Thais who transition to Kickboxing have that gap to fill. Just look at what happened to Thongchai. I'm not saying they can't learn western boxing or do great in it, as history proves some of the best Muay Thai fighters got world titles in western boxing, however the majority of the current Muay Thai fighters from the stadiums do have less good hands than the typical Kickboxer from Europe or even Japan (but they are indeed stronger in other departments such as kicking, clinching, tripping and knees).

 

[verrix]

How and where do you think these narratives started? All the bullshit about "traditional muay thai" or "Ramon Dekkers beating them all" was born and nurtured on tiny subforums the same as this, until it became fact. People significantly overestimate the size of the kickboxing community and underestimate the power which internet subforums have in creating discourse. Take a recent example in MMA. Some guy on the UG made a post about the neofoot work revolution which was taking place in MMA. Joe Rogan read it, repeated it and it became fact. I strongly suspect that Glory wouldn't have signed Petpanomrung if we hadn't been talking about him in the Thailand thread. If enough people online, on just this forum, started to create a narrative about how much kickboxing organisations like Glory could benefit from signing Thais more influential people might start to take notice and then might think about signing another. We just have to come up with different narratives which will have a positive impact on the way that Thai fighters are viewed.

What me and others are doing isn't whining, it's legitamate criticism and it has an effect. Just by pointing out the flaws in the stereotyped picture that people have of Thai fighters can have a positive impact. People will be more likely to know that Thais have won world championships and Olympic medals in boxing and so the whole "Thais can't box" narrative can start to be questioned or at least not repeated everywhere as a dogma. But if we do what you're suggesting and don't say anything, no one else is going to and the negative view of Thai fighters will just continue, unchallenged. I truly believe that, this forum has had a more positive impact in educating people about how Muay Thai really is, then any other resource I know of.

You would've gotten more mileage out of writing out an in-depth explanation for boxing and muay thai that could be linked whenever that shit came up (or posted to other forums) rather than starting this long, unfocused argument. I'd do it myself but I'm not really knowledgeable enough to make a good persuasive argument.