The Dagestani Difference

[xhaydenx]

But many Sherbro fighting experts like @markg171 @xhaydenx @Hdfi @sonhow assure me this is not true 'cause UFC is "the big leagues" and vibes and shit.

The fuck? Why you tag me? I can't remember saying any shit like this haha.

 

[sonhow]

The fuck? Why you tag me? I can't remember saying any shit like this haha.

Me neither as it doesnt make sense but cant remember all the shit I post so no guarantees here!

 

[Bork Neslar]

They're motivated by hatred.

 

[HuskySamoan]

But many Sherbro fighting experts like @markg171 @xhaydenx @Hdfi @sonhow assure me this is not true 'cause UFC is "the big leagues" and vibes and shit.

It's the same in boxing, a lot of the world thought Madrimov beat the USs best p4p boxer last night but they edged it by 1 round to Crawford since he's the money maker. They do not want these central asians and Russians being champ most of the time and when they're really good they are seen as high risk, low reward and they simply pay the Eastern dudes less and they're forced to fight in the west. Many of their best just stay amateur, places like Kazakhstan give them 250k for an Olympic Gold and 100+k for worlds gold, they also put them up and take care of their housing and kids schooling etc. If they're a national team boxer. Why would they go pro and fight for 5k on the regional scene for several years before a major promotion signs them and lowballs they for having a name people can't pronounce and even if they reach rankings will largely get avoided? It's business. It's good that the PFL and Bellator are/were snapping up more of these guys.

Everyone watching the UFC wants to believe it's the best of the best otherwise it largely invalidates their experience. If there was 80-100 roster space for Russians and 40-60 for central asians and they farmed their talent like they do US, Brazil, UK etc...the UFC looks way different.

 

[Neck&Neck]

Maybe he’s born with it
Maybe he’s DagestaniTM

 

[Xoleth]

No, it's not magical mountain genetics or superior discipline and focus (although those might help) the big reason these guys have been such a step ahead (and many weren't to be fair, many Abdulmanap sambo champs caught plenty of Ls) is because of their pedigree. Cory began kickboxing at 17 at a very casual gym, that was his first martial arts experience...Umar began wrestling around 8, by 11-12 he was competing in Muay Thai and made it to the juniors national tournaments in Russia. By 14-15 he was traveling out to Makhachkala to train under Abdulmanap and eventually lived with him. By 19 he won a Sambo world championship and an amateur MMA Russian championship. Umar was being trained to be a world champion before Cory even laced up gloves.

And let's be frank, the team Umar surrounded himself with since day 1 was insane...while maybe a few US gyms can compare like ATT, they are fragmented teams where everyone isn't in support of one another or even trains with each other. The talent Umar has come up with...Movlid Khaybulaev, Renat Khavalov, Amru Magomedov, his brother Usman Nurmagomedov, Khabib, Islam and so many more is just wild. Beyond that, Abdulmanap had the foresight to make connections with AKA because he knew Dagestan was more limited in offering striking training and he also saw the importance of his guys training at a Western gym with Western coaches and teammates etc. Because after a certain point in their careers they would mostly be fighting western fighters.

There's a thoroughness that goes into these guys development and at such young ages, from world class coaches and environments you can't really find in MMA yet. It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

So your arguments are:
1. The Dagestanis start young, while the others don't.
2. They have a lot of talent in one gym, while American gyms are dispersed.

1. I thought many Americans (and not only) start also young. Wrestling, boxing etc...
2. Yeah, but Dagestan has 3 milions. USA has 333 millions + much better conditions in gyms + access to much better steroids.

Come on, dude!
There are other stuff also
a) superior discipline... not just maybe, but most fucking likely
b) having Abdulmanap as their father figure, who knew how to train them.
c) supporting each other.
d) who the fuck knows... but there is something there, more then "they start young"

And why not genetics?
You have them in running, strongman stuff and other sports, where it is clear that 2-3 countries have the best ones.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

I think if a major country took wrestling as serious as Dagestan, just from a sheer numbers perspective, like say Brazil, China or US...they'd eclipse them. Most of Russia doesn't wrestle, it's big in Sakha and Tuva to the East and then the Caucasus region in the South West. I also think boxing is a good example of this, Russia was functionally the Soviet Union at one point right? Including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine..Those central asian guys didn't have a long history of boxing but it got popular due to Soviet influence, their style is super Soviet as well...palm down hooks, in and out footwork, lack of body attacks due to amateur influence etc. Yet in a very short time Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan became amateur boxing powerhouses at the World and Olympic games since the 90s when the iron curtain fell and they actually got to compete.

Dagestan is a country of 3 million and has produced more Olympic champion wrestlers than China ever has. China has a population of 1.2 billion, of course if they threw more numbers at the sport they would surpass them that wasn't the debate. The comment was about: if everything is even culturally and population wise, would China be able to churn out as many Olympic wrestling winners as Dagestan? I say no.

 

[dogsdonutsdragons]

i honestly think a lot of sherdoggers would give the dagastanis a run for their money and wipe the mats with them in any sort of grappling sport. you wont see them call out the sherdog boys i can promise you this.

 

[Hotora86]

No, it's not magical mountain genetics or superior discipline and focus (although those might help) the big reason these guys have been such a step ahead (and many weren't to be fair, many Abdulmanap sambo champs caught plenty of Ls) is because of their pedigree. Cory began kickboxing at 17 at a very casual gym, that was his first martial arts experience...Umar began wrestling around 8, by 11-12 he was competing in Muay Thai and made it to the juniors national tournaments in Russia. By 14-15 he was traveling out to Makhachkala to train under Abdulmanap and eventually lived with him. By 19 he won a Sambo world championship and an amateur MMA Russian championship. Umar was being trained to be a world champion before Cory even laced up gloves.

And let's be frank, the team Umar surrounded himself with since day 1 was insane...while maybe a few US gyms can compare like ATT, they are fragmented teams where everyone isn't in support of one another or even trains with each other. The talent Umar has come up with...Movlid Khaybulaev, Renat Khavalov, Amru Magomedov, his brother Usman Nurmagomedov, Khabib, Islam and so many more is just wild. Beyond that, Abdulmanap had the foresight to make connections with AKA because he knew Dagestan was more limited in offering striking training and he also saw the importance of his guys training at a Western gym with Western coaches and teammates etc. Because after a certain point in their careers they would mostly be fighting western fighters.

There's a thoroughness that goes into these guys development and at such young ages, from world class coaches and environments you can't really find in MMA yet. It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

superior discipline and focus makes them all better and they all progress faster thanks to that.
Like DC said - his wrestling team came back from Dagestan and said that what they had done in the US was easy in comparison.

 

[Greyscale]

So we had dozens of champions from the US and Brazil, now 2 are from Caucasus and it's their genetics, of course. All of a sudden they're very different because they start fighting at 2 while others at around 18-25. Brilliant.

GSP never had any wrestling pedigree. Did his mom secretly cheated with a preacher frorm Abdulmanap's school?

 

[HuskySamoan]

superior discipline and focus makes them all better and they all progress faster thanks to that.
Like DC said - his wrestling team came back from Dagestan and said that what they had done in the US was easy in comparison.

Again, in the US a lot of the National team members begin wrestling seriously at 14-15 as most Middleschools don't have wrestling programs and they learn and compete in Folkstyle, usually after highschool they compete collegiately and then go to freestyle and Olympic aspirations at 22+. Meanwhile in Dagestan they begin much earlier in average, age 4-8 years old typically and are competing a ton by 11-12 if they standout, because they even take the Cadet level very seriously. By 18 if they're good enough, they're training with the national teams or have washed out completely...no college wrestling. And in Dagestan it's freestyle since day 1, not like in the US.

This makes a HUGE difference.

 

[BoxerMaurits]

Great informative write up, thanks @HuskySamoan

 

[kingmob6]

It's the same in boxing, a lot of the world thought Madrimov beat the USs best p4p boxer last night but they edged it by 1 round to Crawford since he's the money maker. They do not want these central asians and Russians being champ most of the time and when they're really good they are seen as high risk, low reward and they simply pay the Eastern dudes less and they're forced to fight in the west. Many of their best just stay amateur, places like Kazakhstan give them 250k for an Olympic Gold and 100+k for worlds gold, they also put them up and take care of their housing and kids schooling etc. If they're a national team boxer. Why would they go pro and fight for 5k on the regional scene for several years before a major promotion signs them and lowballs they for having a name people can't pronounce and even if they reach rankings will largely get avoided? It's business. It's good that the PFL and Bellator are/were snapping up more of these guys.

Everyone watching the UFC wants to believe it's the best of the best otherwise it largely invalidates their experience. If there was 80-100 roster space for Russians and 40-60 for central asians and they farmed their talent like they do US, Brazil, UK etc...the UFC looks way different.

I've seen so many of these horrible decisions in Boxing over the last 2 decades, and quite often against ex-Soviet fighters, that I do not consider boxing a real sport anymore. Its completely rigged. I still watch the big fights sometime, but just as a casual observer, have no faith in the integrity of the sport.
UFC will always have a quota on russian/kazahi/uzbek/tadjik etc fighters, it is what it is. Whenever they need a good fighter, they can always look at their list of prospects and pull one out from one of x-republics, there no other region in the world with as much talent.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I've seen so many of these horrible decisions in Boxing over the last 2 decades, and quite often against ex-Soviet fighters, that I do not consider boxing a real sport anymore. Its completely rigged. I still watch the big fights sometime, but just as a casual observer, have no faith in the integrity of the sport.
UFC will always have a quota on russian/kazahi/uzbek/tadjik etc fighters, it is what it is. Whenever they need a good fighter, they can always look at their list of prospects and pull one out from one of x-republics, there no other region in the world with as much talent.

I mean...They turned down Renat Khavalov recently, now he signed to PFL. They didn't want to barter for Baki Chamsoudinov so he re-signed with the PFL. They let Timur Khizriev sign with Bellator and Ramazan Kuramagomedov, they didn't want them. A lot of the talent to be fair struggles to get a visa or gets stuck in ACA, but even turning down Vartanyan and Azamat Kerefov is insane. Khuseyn Shaykhaev and Amru Magomedov are like the only big Russian hopes we have to get on the Contender series along with Ramazan Gitinov...I'm curious if we even get any of them lol.

Central Asia is starting to pump them out, although a lot of the guys train out of Russia. Khalim Nazruloev, Akbar Abdullaev, Yryskeldi Duysheev and Sanzhar Zakirov all went to ONE...which are like 4 of some of the best the best prospects in the world in their respective divisions. Abdullo Khodzhaev, Khotam Boynazarov, Bakhtovar Yunusov, Salamat Isbulaev and Samandar Murodov are all hopefuls for the UFC....Let's see if any get signed. RIZIN picked up Ramazonbek Temirov and Razbahli Shaydullaev. Then you got Daniyar who went to ACA, which sucks a little because he's so absurdly good at his age but there's real tests for him there at least.

I'm not optimistic and I'm making this post so we can look back and realize they just don't sign these guys. I make prospect lists for Brazil, UK, US, Latin America and over a couple years usually 60-80% end up snagged by the UFC if not fucking more. Meanwhile ex Soviet guys just don't get signed, it numbs my mind.

I also feel the UFC is basically where boxings at. Very few cards have meaningful fights beyond the main and co main, top prospects either get gifted paths as draws or ignored for long stretches if they aren't draws. And then most cards are just filled with fodder level talent. The title picture is still better than boxing, but it isn't great.

 

[kingmob6]

I mean...They turned down Renat Khavalov recently, now he signed to PFL. They didn't want to barter for Baki Chamsoudinov so he re-signed with the PFL. They let Timur Khizriev sign with Bellator and Ramazan Kuramagomedov, they didn't want them. A lot of the talent to be fair struggles to get a visa or gets stuck in ACA, but even turning down Vartanyan and Azamat Kerefov is insane. Khuseyn Shaykhaev and Amru Magomedov are like the only big Russian hopes we have to get on the Contender series along with Ramazan Gitinov...I'm curious if we even get any of them lol.

Central Asia is starting to pump them out, although a lot of the guys train out of Russia. Khalim Nazruloev, Akbar Abdullaev, Yryskeldi Duysheev and Sanzhar Zakirov all went to ONE...which are like 4 of some of the best the best prospects in the world in their respective divisions. Abdullo Khodzhaev, Khotam Boynazarov, Bakhtovar Yunusov, Salamat Isbulaev and Samandar Murodov are all hopefuls for the UFC....Let's see if any get signed. RIZIN picked up Ramazonbek Temirov and Razbahli Shaydullaev. Then you got Daniyar who went to ACA, which sucks a little because he's so absurdly good at his age but there's real tests for him there at least.

I'm not optimistic and I'm making this post so we can look back and realize they just don't sign these guys. I make prospect lists for Brazil, UK, US, Latin America and over a couple years usually 60-80% end up snagged by the UFC if not fucking more. Meanwhile ex Soviet guys just don't get signed, it numbs my mind.

I also feel the UFC is basically where boxings at. Very few cards have meaningful fights beyond the main and co main, top prospects either get gifted paths as draws or ignored for long stretches if they aren't draws. And then most cards are just filled with fodder level talent. The title picture is still better than boxing, but it isn't great.

I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the fighters from those regions. I do not follow the regional scene there that close myself, just don't have time to have a pulse on all the talent there, it's too deep. UFC unlikely to change their formula though, and will keep their national ratios intact. I just don't understand why they sign talent from ex-Soviet republics that's isn't even top-tier talent there, it's usually some 2nd grade prospect. It's like they intentionally want to get guys in that will have a chance at being AVG over time.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the fighters from those regions. I do not follow the regional scene there that close myself, just don't have time to have a pulse on all the talent there, it's too deep. UFC unlikely to change their formula though, and will keep their national ratios intact. I just don't understand why they sign talent from ex-Soviet republics that's isn't even top-tier talent there, it's usually some 2nd grade prospect. It's like they intentionally want to get guys in that will have a chance at being AVG over time.

I don't really watch much anymore, I like following prospects careers and seeing the sport grow, how talent develops. I barely watch UFC cards at this point though, couple main card fights live here and there or retroactively watching some. Honestly the UFCs signing practices don't make a ton of sense...AJ McKee (someone I know indirectly) resigned with Bellator due to the higher offer. Losene Keita went with the Euro 1m tournament rather than UFC, Salahdine Parnasse was lowballed and re signed with KSW for a huge contract. Roman Bravo Young Jr and Gable Stevensons were declined when reaching out to the UFC about developmental contracts. There's so many other examples, they simply DO NOT go after talent anymore, they just sign what comes knocking on their door...unless it speaks Cyrillic, then they ask it to leave. Long gone are the days of the UFC going after other promotions champions and putting together big fights. And really, it's funny, 20k/20k starting contracts are great for Caucasians and Central Asians but in America 80k is a very modest middle class salary where you'll never be able to afford a home...any serious prospect or serious athlete considering MMA won't be interested with how little the UFC shells out...like 12% of their profit revenue lol.

Sports just being really held back by it's "major league".

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Relative to their overall numbers in the UFC, the recency of their arrival in the UFC, and the size of the gym they come out of, it is pretty impressive.

I think Khabilov and Khabib started in the UFC around the same time in 2012.

Khabib became LW Champ, Islam became LW Champ, Usman became Bellator LW Champ, and Umar has a chance to become UFC BW Champ. Thats four potential champions from Team Abdulmanap since 2012. Thats insane.

Not to mention some of the other champs they have or had in other smaller or overseas promotions. I think that is a pretty good track record of success.

Right, but that isn't Dagestan, that's a team. Khabib's gym is a lot better at fighting on the ground than the other gyms in Dagestan.


Abdulmanap is just top tier, and possibly the best team in the world. Dagestan

does punch above its weight overall, but I think many people kind of lump them all together, when many Dagestani guys are not killers like the Nurmagomedov family (and Islam).

 

[Carrotman23]

It's the same in boxing, a lot of the world thought Madrimov beat the USs best p4p boxer last night but they edged it by 1 round to Crawford since he's the money maker. They do not want these central asians and Russians being champ most of the time and when they're really good they are seen as high risk, low reward and they simply pay the Eastern dudes less and they're forced to fight in the west. Many of their best just stay amateur, places like Kazakhstan give them 250k for an Olympic Gold and 100+k for worlds gold, they also put them up and take care of their housing and kids schooling etc. If they're a national team boxer. Why would they go pro and fight for 5k on the regional scene for several years before a major promotion signs them and lowballs they for having a name people can't pronounce and even if they reach rankings will largely get avoided? It's business. It's good that the PFL and Bellator are/were snapping up more of these guys.

Everyone watching the UFC wants to believe it's the best of the best otherwise it largely invalidates their experience. If there was 80-100 roster space for Russians and 40-60 for central asians and they farmed their talent like they do US, Brazil, UK etc...the UFC looks way different.

Crawford won that fight and out struck Madrimov in every round (though some by only 1-2 punches and Madrimov did throw hard). It was very very close, but Madrimov didn't win that fight.

Completely agree with the rest of your post though, its a shame the UFC doesn't sign more Russians.

 

[kingmob6]

Right, but that isn't Dagestan, that's a team. Khabib's gym is a lot better at fighting on the ground than the other gyms in Dagestan.


Abdulmanap is just top tier, and possibly the best team. Dagestan does punch above its weight overall, but I think many people kind of lump them all together, when many Dagestani guys are not killers like the Nurmigomedov family (and Islam).

Abdulmanap was the highest tier sambo coach, and over time they just perfected their mma formula, it is an exception, you are right. Dagestan has a lot of mma talent (and probably the most concentrated overall combat athletes anywhere in the world) as well, but many younger prospects are not competing in UFC, and spread out over other gyms/coaches etc.

There is more to this formula of generating combat athletes than what has been discussed in this excellent thread. I have first hand knowledge on that being from the region myself originally, and doing combat sports for a decade there.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

It's the same in boxing, a lot of the world thought Madrimov beat the USs best p4p boxer last night but they edged it by 1 round to Crawford since he's the money maker. They do not want these central asians and Russians being champ most of the time and when they're really good they are seen as high risk, low reward and they simply pay the Eastern dudes less and they're forced to fight in the west. Many of their best just stay amateur, places like Kazakhstan give them 250k for an Olympic Gold and 100+k for worlds gold, they also put them up and take care of their housing and kids schooling etc. If they're a national team boxer. Why would they go pro and fight for 5k on the regional scene for several years before a major promotion signs them and lowballs they for having a name people can't pronounce and even if they reach rankings will largely get avoided? It's business. It's good that the PFL and Bellator are/were snapping up more of these guys.

Everyone watching the UFC wants to believe it's the best of the best otherwise it largely invalidates their experience. If there was 80-100 roster space for Russians and 40-60 for central asians and they farmed their talent like they do US, Brazil, UK etc...the UFC looks way different.

That's not really what happened with Madrimov. It was just a close fight, and I obviously get no money, but scored it for Crawford, as did many.

Also, it was a Saudi Arabia event. Why would Saudi Arabia rig a fight with Madrimov? Crawford doesn't make them money, and they have no reason to discriminate against Madrimov.

Madrimov is a DAZN guy, and the DAZN broadcast team were heavily pushing him. So I don't see how there could be much bias there.