The Dagestani Difference

[Rataria]

Plus Corny Sandnaggen is just essentially just mass produced single mother crotch fruit that was just following the commercial cage fighting trend and really had fuck all else to go for life

 

[Rataria]

^^ *in life

 

[Tweak896]

I think it's a cultural difference, in America you are born with a phone in your hand, every tv/movie on the your remote, and social media and other distractions. Then you have a different person born in the mountains of Dagestan, where you have nothing but training and fighting for fun. Those 2 different lifestyles can't compete with each other. It all comes down to you getting what you put in, and unless someone finds the kryptonite in their style, there is no way to close that gap.

I hope the dagestani's start to take over all belts eventually and maybe high level wrestlers can stop it. All I know is these guys are going to push the competition that much further. Having a long training camp for them isn't enough, you need a lifestyle that is completely obsessed with fighting.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Genetics has nothing to do with it, it's cultural

Culture and genetics go hand in hand over time. Diet, terrain, activity/work, climate etc. Over thousands of years is what creates genetic diversity. And then there's epi-genetics, being gene expression which is noticed over the course of just generations rather than thousands of years through influence. But I think culture plays a huge part in it, you think Polynesians or Chinese or Germans etc couldn't make strong ass wrestlers? They just don't culturally wrestle or if they ever did, they lost connection to that culture (like India). If wrestling was as popular in the US as football is, could you imagine the athletes that would be competing? Wrestlings only popular in like 7 of 50 states and it's still less popular than football, baseball and basketball in all those states. Brazil and the US are two of the most diverse countries in the world but if wrestling was as popular as soccer in Brazil...my god.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

I think it's a cultural difference, in America you are born with a phone in your hand, every tv/movie on the your remote, and social media and other distractions. Then you have a different person born in the mountains of Dagestan, where you have nothing but training and fighting for fun. Those 2 different lifestyles can't compete with each other. It all comes down to you getting what you put in, and unless someone finds the kryptonite in their style, there is no way to close that gap.

I hope the dagestani's start to take over all belts eventually and maybe high level wrestlers can stop it. All I know is these guys are going to push the competition that much further. Having a long training camp for them isn't enough, you need a lifestyle that is completely obsessed with fighting.

Yes but the US has complex training facilities and money. They should be able to train winners. Although I agree that other parts of the world are poorer and don’t enjoy the same luxuries Americans do, I think it has more to do with talented athletes choosing to go into A level sports that pay more in the US and the fact that there is genetic/cultural component that lends itself toward Caucasian dominance.

Add to that the possibility that Dagestani wrestling integrates itself better to MMA than freestyle American wrestling does and that might be why they are so good.

 

[HuskySamoan]

That poster usually has bad takes but he's right on this one.

Sports fans are so terrified of the genetics discussion. Terrified of sounding racist or acknowledging the differences and being forced to admit that not everything is hard work and some are just gifted which forces them to deal with the reality that success is often out of their control.

The only thing they might acknowledge is the natural abilities of black athletes because that one is so obviously it can't be denied, but they're still very careful and apprehensive.

Admitting that these high T skulled mountain men with short stocky legs and extremely wide backs might just be genetically built for their fighting style is a step too far. It's too much.

So I had a conversation with a coworker the other day about this and he was clueless that a lot of Olympic medals are won by Europeans in the high jump and long jump....beating out the world's best black athletes fairly often. This is a great display of CULTURAL influence, when was the last time for the US that a white guy competed in the long jump or high jump? It's probably been decades, but white Europeans beat the African Americans at the World Games and Olympics all the time....I'm not disagreeing that genetics plays a relevant role to an extent, but I don't think people who often speak on genetics know much about it.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

Culture and genetics go hand in hand over time. Diet, terrain, activity/work, climate etc. Over thousands of years is what creates genetic diversity. And then there's epi-genetics, being gene expression which is noticed over the course of just generations rather than thousands of years through influence. But I think culture plays a huge part in it, you think Polynesians or Chinese or Germans etc couldn't make strong ass wrestlers? They just don't culturally wrestle or if they ever did, they lost connection to that culture (like India). If wrestling was as popular in the US as football is, could you imagine the athletes that would be competing? Wrestlings only popular in like 7 of 50 states and it's still less popular than football, baseball and basketball in all those states. Brazil and the US are two of the most diverse countries in the world but if wrestling was as popular as soccer in Brazil...my god.

They probably could generate strong wrestlers but would they be able to overcome other regions wrestlers that have genetic advantages they don’t? Like you said, they go hand in hand.. genetics and environment do. Some races would reign supreme while others might turn up some formidable foes but overall would churn out a smaller amount of winners if they had the same ingrained culture.

 

[HuskySamoan]

They probably could generate strong wrestlers but would they be able to overcome other regions wrestlers that have genetic advantages they don’t? Like you said, they go hand in hand.. genetics and environment do. Some races would reign supreme while others might turn up some formidable foes but overall would churn out a smaller amount of winners if they had the same ingrained culture.

I think if a major country took wrestling as serious as Dagestan, just from a sheer numbers perspective, like say Brazil, China or US...they'd eclipse them. Most of Russia doesn't wrestle, it's big in Sakha and Tuva to the East and then the Caucasus region in the South West. I also think boxing is a good example of this, Russia was functionally the Soviet Union at one point right? Including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine..Those central asian guys didn't have a long history of boxing but it got popular due to Soviet influence, their style is super Soviet as well...palm down hooks, in and out footwork, lack of body attacks due to amateur influence etc. Yet in a very short time Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan became amateur boxing powerhouses at the World and Olympic games since the 90s when the iron curtain fell and they actually got to compete.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

That poster usually has bad takes but he's right on this one.

Sports fans are so terrified of the genetics discussion. Terrified of sounding racist or acknowledging the differences and being forced to admit that not everything is hard work and some are just gifted which forces them to deal with the reality that success is often out of their control.

The only thing they might acknowledge is the natural abilities of black athletes because that one is so obviously it can't be denied, but they're still very careful and apprehensive.

Admitting that these high T skulled mountain men with short stocky legs and extremely wide backs might just be genetically built for their fighting style is a step too far. It's too much.

Basketball is a top sport in China if it was just numbers and chance there should be way more pros in both the USA and Europe.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

I think if a major country took wrestling as serious as Dagestan, just from a sheer numbers perspective, like say Brazil, China or US...they'd eclipse them.

Sorry for the double post. China decided to take soccer seriously. How did that work out? They recently got beaten by Hong Kong and they needed the refs against Singapore.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Basketball is a top sport in China if it was just numbers and chance there should be way more pros in both the USA and Europe.

China's height makes that very unrealistic. This is an example of where genetics plays a big role. It's also why in lifting they dominate up until a certain point and then largely fall off. US sports are distinctly size driven, particularly Basketball and Football.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

China's height makes that very unrealistic. This is an example of where genetics plays a big role. It's also why in lifting they dominate up until a certain point and then largely fall off. US sports are distinctly size driven, particularly Basketball and Football.

Among such a large population people there should be plenty of outliers. Also small guards do exist in the NBA and the big euro powerhouses, they are rarely Chinese.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

I think if a major country took wrestling as serious as Dagestan, just from a sheer numbers perspective, like say Brazil, China or US...they'd eclipse them. Most of Russia doesn't wrestle, it's big in Sakha and Tuva to the East and then the Caucasus region in the South West. I also think boxing is a good example of this, Russia was functionally the Soviet Union at one point right? Including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine..Those central asian guys didn't have a long history of boxing but it got popular due to Soviet influence, their style is super Soviet as well...palm down hooks, in and out footwork, lack of body attacks due to amateur influence etc. Yet in a very short time Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan became amateur boxing powerhouses at the World and Olympic games since the 90s when the iron curtain fell and they actually got to compete.

Are there any generic components you would consider as to why the central Asian countries are excelling in boxing?

 

[HuskySamoan]

Add to that the possibility that Dagestani wrestling integrates itself better to MMA than freestyle American wrestling does and that might be why they are so good.

Name some Dagestani WRESTLERS in MMA? Fucking Combat Sambo lends itself to MMA better because it's extremely similar to MMA per results. Islam never even really had a wrestling or judo background, he did Tae Kwon Do and Sanda largely before training under Abdulmanap around 11-12. Abdulmanap was mainly a combat Sambo guy. Khabib competed mostly in Sambo....not a wrestling. He wrestled as a kid formatively and did Judo for a couple years, but he competed in Hand to Hand Combat, Pankration and Sambo before MMA. I think the fact that all these guys like Usman, Umar, Khabib, Islam etc were involved in martial arts as children (ages 4-8) and then were seriously competing by pre teen age and then all came up under Abdulmanap (Russias best Sambo trainer) still as children and focused on pro MMA careers and not academic pursuits at all should say a lot. It's like Zabit and Khasan Magomedsharipov, they literally went to academies that focused on martial arts and combat sports for their middle school/highschool years.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Why haven’t they put out any similarly dominant fighters north of LW?

 

[Steve Fox]

Religion, culture and no pretty women in Dagestan.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Are there any generic components you would consider as to why the central Asian countries are excelling in boxing?

You said "generic" did you mean to say genetic? It's a funny one, don't take this as a serious response but my grandfather told me years ago when he and a friend went to Tuva and Mongolia that those guys weren't always the most muscular but their tendons were extremely strong and they were quick. I watched some arm wrestling matches where Ongarbaev was competing and the Russian commentator said the Kazakhs have very fast reactions and super strong tendons so even if they don't look strong, they are very strong.

That said, there's been eras when Japan has had like no boxing champions and now they have the 2nd most in the world next to the US and then 3rd was Mexico...all 3 super different gene pools. Places like Central Asia and Cuba are hot beds for talent but due to communism in Cuba and lack of global appeal to a western market on central Asia these guys get ducked, get paid shit and often times stay amateur since their countries pay them well to win medals. I think you're really overhyping genetics here and my long and high jump example is a very strong one. Want another? African Judo SUCKS, even though there's areas where Judo is popular and they have dedicated teams, they're terrible comparatively to like everywhere that competes..but then when you take West Africans and put them in France, they do quite well...I Mean the best ones still often get beat by Asians and Europeans but they're a lot better despite no history in doing it because they grow up in a place with more resources and influence and coaching and competition and blah blah for it.


Also poverty is a correlation to athletic success in most of the world. In Russia caucasians are poor and don't tend to go into politics, become doctors, professors, lawyers, scientists etc...but they overachieve in the sports they do despite being a minority. Same is true of black people in the US and Polynesians in parts of Oceania. You can find exceptions to this but it's fairly true and trends.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

No, it's not magical mountain genetics or superior discipline and focus (although those might help) the big reason these guys have been such a step ahead (and many weren't to be fair, many Abdulmanap sambo champs caught plenty of Ls) is because of their pedigree. Cory began kickboxing at 17 at a very casual gym, that was his first martial arts experience...Umar began wrestling around 8, by 11-12 he was competing in Muay Thai and made it to the juniors national tournaments in Russia. By 14-15 he was traveling out to Makhachkala to train under Abdulmanap and eventually lived with him. By 19 he won a Sambo world championship and an amateur MMA Russian championship. Umar was being trained to be a world champion before Cory even laced up gloves.

And let's be frank, the team Umar surrounded himself with since day 1 was insane...while maybe a few US gyms can compare like ATT, they are fragmented teams where everyone isn't in support of one another or even trains with each other. The talent Umar has come up with...Movlid Khaybulaev, Renat Khavalov, Amru Magomedov, his brother Usman Nurmagomedov, Khabib, Islam and so many more is just wild. Beyond that, Abdulmanap had the foresight to make connections with AKA because he knew Dagestan was more limited in offering striking training and he also saw the importance of his guys training at a Western gym with Western coaches and teammates etc. Because after a certain point in their careers they would mostly be fighting western fighters.

There's a thoroughness that goes into these guys development and at such young ages, from world class coaches and environments you can't really find in MMA yet. It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

Starting early helps.. but weve seen plenty of fighters who have been lifelong guys and they don't rise to the top every time or even most of the time

I think its the mentality and the experience from training in those conditions that makes them the way they are...in western cultures we've lost the idea of a warrior class here...in other countries it still very much a thing, Russia being one of them ...so they have the frame work and the cultural support to develop the necessary discipline to excel..

That said every man on this earth is beatable on any given day ... So in the end the individual has to perform too ... they have to be able to compete when it's time... No amount of training can fix this...

 

[HuskySamoan]

Why haven’t they put out any similarly dominant fighters north of LW?

Firstly, there's about 25 Russians in the entire UFC and some are women and some aren't even Caucasian. Secondly, the UFC often doesn't want to sign them look at Renat Khavalov (PFL), Eduard Vartanyan (Nasha Delo), Azamat Kerefov (ACA), Mokaev released, Askarov released. All these guys were either cut or the UFC didn't even want to sign them. And they're all way more skilled and accomplished than the majority of US, Latin American, Brazilian, UK and Oceania talent that they do sign and there's way more examples than just these guys. So obviously, a big reason is because they simply don't sign them like they do other countries talent. But beyond that, Caucasians tend to be smaller I think, in my experience for sure and I've been around a fair amount.

But let's see how Shara, Imavov and Khamzat end up at 185 and I think Ankalaev beats Pereira whenever.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Starting early helps.. but weve seen plenty of fighters who have been lifelong guys and they don't rise to the top every time or even most of the time

I think its the mentality and the experience from training in those conditions that makes them the way they are...in western cultures we've lost the idea of a warrior class here...in other countries it still very much a thing, Russia being one of them ...so they have the frame work and the cultural support to develop the necessary discipline to excel..

That said every man on this earth is beatable on any given day ... So in the end the individual has to perform too ... they have to be able to compete when it's time... No amount of training can fix this...

It's not JUST starting early, but it's the fact that they started early and were in an environment where so many great guys were
Islams first martial arts coach was a Tae Kwon Do guy..that Tae Kwon Do guy became an Olympian like 3 years later lol..Their coach was Abdulmanap who was Russias best Sambo coach, and Abdulmanap had a lot of philosophy and experience behind his approach and these kids were dedicating their lives to it as children still. Look at all these guys who came up together and how well they did....It's not just "starting young" but the approach and guidance and resources from such a young age and the constant competing at relevant levels. Umar was competing in Junior national Muay Thai championships at 13-14 years old, was competing in Dagestan cup Sambo tournaments as a teen, was a Amateur MMA champ and Sambo world champ before 20. You can't compare this shit to Cory who walked into a strip mall Dojo at 17 and went to University after highschool and didn't take MMA seriously until 20.