International The Call For Scottish Independence, Part 2.

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Arkain2K, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019 at 1:20 AM
  2. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Scotland North Sea oil revenues collapse by nearly 100% to re-ignite independence debate
    Scotland’s public sector spends £12,800 per person, but collects just £10,000 per person
    Ben Chapman | 24 August 2016

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    Scotland’s revenues from North Sea oil have collapsed by 97 per cent in the past year as oil prices have plummeted, reigniting a fierce debate over whether an independent Scotland could finance itself.

    Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said: “The nationalists' case for independence has been swallowed up by a £14bn black hole.”

    Taxes collected from oil production fell from £1.8bn in 2015 to just £60m in 2016. The gap between tax revenues and what Scotland spends is now 9.5 per cent, or £14.8bn, compared to a 4 per cent deficit for the UK as a whole.

    Scotland’s public sector now spends £12,800 per person, but collects just £10,000 each, the figures reveal.

    In 2008-9, as oil peaked at almost $150 per barrel, the Scottish government brought in a record £11.6bn from North Sea fields. North Sea Brent crude, which is expensive to extract, now languishes at less than $50 amid a glut of middle eastern supply and a slowdown in global demand.

    The figures re-ignited the debate over Scottish independence, with fierce disagreement over the viability of using Scotland’s oil revenues to finance public spending.

    Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister denied that the deficit represented a serious problem. “The foundations of our economy remain strong”, she said.

    “The lower oil price has, of course, reduced offshore revenues, with a corresponding impact on our fiscal position - this underlines the fact that Scotland's challenge is to continue to grow our onshore economy.

    “However, Scotland's long-term economic success is now being directly threatened by the likely impact of Brexit.

    “Today's figures come a day after analysis from the Scottish Government showed that taking Scotland out of the European Union and our place in the world's biggest single market would make the task of growing and diversifying the Scottish economy even harder.”

    Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said: “Today's figures should act as a reality check for those calling for another independence referendum.

    Patrick Harvie, Scottish Greens finance spokesman, said: “These figures will inevitably set off another round of empty rhetoric, just as they do every year, between those who think the SNP can do no wrong and those who think Scotland can never aspire to govern itself.

    “In truth, the figures show what has been clear for years - that a strong future for Scotland's economy will depend on ending our reliance on oil and gas, and investing in the industries of the 21st century instead.”

    Scotland's Finance Secretary Derek Mackay said: “It is important to note that [the figures represent] Scotland's fiscal position under the current constitutional arrangements.

    “The position if Scotland was to become independent would depend on a range of factors which are not reflected in this publication.”

    Scottish Conservative finance spokesman Murdo Fraser said: “Today's analysis simply confirms the fact that Scotland benefits massively from being a member of the United Kingdom.

    “This union dividend amounted to £1,600 for every man, woman and child last year, according to these figures.

    “In recent days we have seen the First Minister fear-mongering over the UK's decision to leave the EU in the hope she can hide the flaws in her own separation plan.

    “It is time she acted like a proper First Minister, ended her unwanted plan to take us back to another toxic referendum, and allowed Scotland to move on.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sh-independence-nicola-sturgeon-a7207756.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019 at 12:10 AM
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  3. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Scottish government publishes independence referendum bill
    Libby Brooks Scotland correspondent | May 29, 2019

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    Legislation to enable a second referendum on independence has been published by the Scottish government, as Nicola Sturgeon said another vote before 2021 would give Scotland “the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation – rather than have a Brexit future imposed upon us”.

    The framework bill, published on Wednesday, comes after the Scottish National party secured a record three MEPs and its highest European parliament vote at 38%, boosted by the first minister’s clear pro-remain campaigning, in which Sturgeon urged voters to support her party whether or not they were pro-independence, to send a convincing message about Scotland’s opposition to Brexit.

    In a statement to Holyrood on Wednesday afternoon, the Scottish government’s constitutional relations secretary, Michael Russell, described the EU election result as a “fresh start”. He argued Scotland had stated “loudly and clearly that it was a European nation”, adding that the conditions for holding a second independence referendum, set out in the SNP’s 2016 manifesto, had now been “met in full” as the UK headed for a no-deal Brexit.

    The referendums (Scotland) bill does not specify the date, question or referendum period, which would all be set by secondary legislation. Sturgeon has previously committed to securing the necessary transfer of powers from Westminster before holding a vote, something Theresa May has consistently stated she would refuse if requested.

    The SNP leader said: “We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point to enable an independence referendum that is beyond challenge to be held later in this parliament. It is essential the UK government recognises that it would be a democratic outrage if it seeks to block such a referendum. Indeed, any such stance would, in my view, prove to be utterly unsustainable.”

    Following the publication of the bill, three of the candidates to replace May as Conservative leader: Rory Stewart, Sajid Javid and James Cleverly, said they would block any request from Sturgeon to hold another independence referendum.

    Sturgeon, who first announced she wanted new legislation for a second referendum in June 2016, immediately after the UK voted to leave the EU, added: “Now, more than ever, it is essential that we keep Scotland’s options open so that people have the opportunity to choose a better future.

    “Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster, and our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, have been ignored.”

    Outlining her intention to publish the legislation last month, Sturgeon insisted a second independence referendum must be held before the next Holyrood election in May 2021 if Brexit went ahead, but has since revised her position, suggesting she would still push for another vote if the UK were to remain in the EU.

    While recent polling has shown a slight lift in support for independence, she cautioned party activists at last month’s SNP conference about the need to build popular support for their cause.

    As a challenge to critics who have warned independence would result in billions of pounds in spending cuts, Sturgeon announced at the conference a new campaign on the economics of independence, launching this summer, including a guide on the subject for all 2.4m Scottish households.

    The proposed bill is intended to become law by the end of this year, and is expected to pass without difficulty given Holyrood’s pro-independence majority between the SNP and Scottish Greens.

    In his statement to MSPs, Michael Russell said one of the key lessons from Brexit was that “there is a need for reconciliation”. He said the Scottish government was trying “to get away from the negativity and nastiness of the current Brexit process” through a package of proposals, including cross-party talks to discuss Scotland’s constitutional future, and a citizens’ assembly, based on the Irish model, which was used successfully in reforming Ireland’s abortion laws.

    Responding to Russell’s statement, the Scottish Conservatives constitution spokesman, Adam Tomkins, accused the SNP government of “laying the ground for a ‘wildcat’ second referendum on independence”.

    Describing the bill as “a power grab on an industrial scale”, Tomkins warned: “It’s not about the democracy of letting people decide in a lawful referendum – it’s about the diktat of an independence-obsessed first minister.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...publishes-second-independence-referendum-bill
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  4. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Scotland's deficit seven times higher than UK as a whole last year
    By Severin Carrell | Aug 21, 2019

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    Scotland ran a deficit seven times higher than the UK as a whole last year, despite again cutting its overspend on public services.

    The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) figures showed there was a record gap of nearly £2,000 per person between how much was spent on public services and debt repayment, and total tax revenues for 2018-19.

    Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

    Total state spending in Scotland was £1,661 higher per person than the UK average at £75.3bn, while tax receipts were £307 less per head than the UK average, at £62.7bn. Excluding oil revenues, the deficit exceeded £14bn, equal to 22.5% of tax revenues.

    Opposition parties said the data blew a hole in the financial case for leaving the UK. But Derek Mackay, the Scottish finance secretary, said it proved independence was needed to allow Scotland to control its own economic policies.

    “I recognise that the notional deficit isn’t where we would want it to be,” Mackay said, but argued that Gers showed onshore tax income, excluding oil revenues, was up 5.1%, while employment was at record levels. “Revenues are growing faster than expenditure,” he added.

    Mackay confirmed that the Gers data, which covers all UK and Scottish government spending in Scotland and a share of pan-UK spending on areas such as defence, overseas aid and debt reduction, was an accurate assessment of the country’s fiscal position last year.

    He said they were irrelevant to an independent Scotland’s future finances, however. “I do think these figures speak to the truth, speak to the fact, that Scotland would be better off as an independent country than we are as part of the UK,” he said.

    He said current tax revenues now paid for all Scotland’s devolved services, including social care. Total state spending included about £6.5bn on servicing the UK’s debt repayments and defence costs including Trident.

    The Scottish National party wants Trident scrapped and Mackay confirmed that his government would refuse to repay its share of UK debt after independence. He said the SNP would instead offer “solidarity payments” to cover its share of historic debts, but he admitted he did not know whether the UK government would agree to that arrangement.

    Mackay suggested the SNP would not try to cut public spending after independence but would instead focus on economic growth to cut the revenue gap. However, he was unable to say how quickly GDP would need to grow to avoid spending cuts.

    Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, was scathing about Mackay’s claims that Scotland should be pleased it was cutting its deficit faster than the UK. The Gers report said Scotland’s fiscal gap had consistently been 7% higher than the UK’s over the last five years.

    She said Scotland’s notional deficit was the highest in the EU. Cyprus had the next nearest, at 4.8%, while Romania’s was at 3% and France at 2.5%. EU membership rules require member states to have a budget deficit below 3%. “For the SNP to pretend a 7% deficit is not an issue is criminally negligent,” she tweeted.

    Unlike previous years, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister and SNP leader, chose not to meet the media to discuss the Gers figures. Instead she campaigned for the third time in Shetland in the byelection to replace the Lib Dem MSP Tavish Scott, who stood down in June.

    Willie Rennie, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, accused Sturgeon of dodging difficult questions by refusing to host the Gers press conference. He said this data showed independence would chaos economic chaos. “Five years ago, the vast majority of people in Shetland voted to avoid this eye-watering deficit by rejecting the SNP’s independence campaign,” and they should reject the SNP in the byelection too, he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  5. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Scottish Independence Is Back, and So Are the Financial Hurdles
    By Eddie Spence | August 31, 2019

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    It’s been a good few weeks for Scotland’s pro-independence government. An opinion poll showed an increase in support for breaking away from the rest of Britain. Then the U.K. headed for a showdown over Brexit and the popular leader of the biggest opposition party stepped down.

    While the political and emotional arguments may be stacking up, questions remain over economics and finance. Recent figures suggest the challenges are just as great as they were when Scotland last voted on ending the three-centuries-old union with England and Wales five years ago this month.

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    The Scottish National Party, which runs the semi-autonomous administration in Edinburgh, has been championing the differences between Scotland and the rest of Britain and is demanding another referendum. Should certain political dominoes fall, it might end up getting one.

    Scotland voted overwhelmingly against leaving the European Union and this year’s European parliamentary elections saw anti-Brexit parties prevail, unlike in England. The core economic argument is that full control over taxation, a geographical share of North Sea oil, a long transition to its own currency and continued membership in the EU will foster greater prosperity.

    The problem is when it comes to breaking away, some of the key numbers still look the same as any other British region if it were untethered from the economic dynamo that is London.

    Last month’s publication of government finances showed that as Europe’s newest independent state, Scotland would have a larger budget deficit than any other EU nation. The shortfall would stand at 7% of GDP, albeit down from 8.1% a year earlier.

    Though it has fallen in recent years, at just under 13 billion pounds ($15.8 billion), Scotland’s public deficit is roughly half the size of the U.K.’s as a whole.

    [​IMG]

    Such statistics are often used by opponents of independence to show Scotland relies on income from England to fund its public services, but the reality is a little more subtle. The cash transfers Scotland receives are comparable to those that most English regions get from London and the South East. Scotland is about as fiscally independent as Yorkshire.

    During the 2014 referendum the answer to naysayers was one word: oil. Most of U.K.’s oil reserves lie in Scottish waters and the argument was that the wealth generated by hydrocarbon extraction could cover the fiscal deficit and more.

    Since then, the price of crude crashed to less than half its 2014 peak and North Sea tax revenue collapsed. While the industry has picked up in the past two years, offshore revenue for the 2016-2017 financial year was 266 million pounds compared with the minimum of 6.8 billion pounds predicted in the pro-independence campaign’s “Scotland’s Future” blueprint.

    [​IMG]

    Part of Scotland’s dilemma is that its economy is missing a large productive city like London, Paris or Copenhagen, which can subsidize less productive rural regions. Scotland’s population of 5.4 million is less than two thirds of London’s.

    While the historic capital Edinburgh ranks highly for output per resident, it’s too small and so doesn’t generate enough tax revenue in absolute terms. Glasgow, Scotland’s largest city, isn’t as productive, statistics show. Politically, they’re also different: Glasgow voted for Scottish independence five years ago while Edinburgh opposed it.

    Usually, the most economically dynamic cities in a country are the largest, owing to the benefits produced by “economies of agglomeration,” that is bringing people and businesses closer together to improve efficiency. But, unlike much of Europe, in the U.K. that’s not the case. Cities like Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow are less productive.

    “This poses a challenge for the SNP,” said Tom Forth, co-founder of The Data City, which compiles statistics to help steer urban policy making. “For as long as the city is a net recipient of public money rather than a net contributor to the Treasury, the fiscal case for Scottish independence will be hard to make.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ence-is-back-and-so-are-the-financial-hurdles
     
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  6. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    As Brexit uncertainty drags on, Scotland's appetite for independence grows
    Margaret Evans · CBC News · Posted: Sep 06, 2019

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    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brexit-scottish-independence-debate-new-life-1.5272126
     
  7. Happy Man

    Happy Man Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    This is how Ireland becomes united and free.

    At last!!!!!!!!!!

    And on your post about Scotland and oil revenue. They will have zero after the left makes them stop pumping it. Send in AOC!!
     
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  8. Avon

    Avon Yung_Shkreli

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    Very sad to see their union in danger. England, ironically might have voted a break from the EU but broken up the union. Scottish calls for independence are completely understandable. It was only a few years ago their membership in the EU was held over their head if they were secede, only to get kidnapped out of the EU.


    I'm almost afraid to ask, but what???

    Scotland as an independent country is left from the Democratic party. Far more.

    In fact, the British conservative party is probably left of the Democratic party.
     
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  9. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Nothing says Scottish independence like Braveheart. Here's hoping they win.


     
  10. JamesRussler

    JamesRussler You can call me Jimmy

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  11. Happy Man

    Happy Man Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    There are different variances of “the left”.

    There are many on that side that will say Scotland is destroying the world with pumping oil, and selling it.

    No more fossil fuels. Only green. Scotland’s major revenue stream no longer exists
     
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  12. 7437

    7437 Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    Are you basing that on anything in Scotland? Or just making broad assumptions about what you think leftists want in other countries
     
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  13. danny23

    danny23 Black Belt

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    Won't happen.
     
  14. Billy no mates

    Billy no mates Brown Belt

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    Yes that drunken religious bigot really had a good insight on the Scottish psyche .
     
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  15. 7437

    7437 Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    Yes he did.
     
  16. lurker

    lurker Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    fuck gibson, hope he gets raped by a pack of ninjas
     
  17. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Fuck religion. If thinking it's stupid is bigotry then I'll bear that cross. Fuck sober people too, fwiw.
     
  18. TheTimeIsNotNow

    TheTimeIsNotNow Red Belt

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    Another referendum is definitely warranted after this whole Brexit debacle. Whether you support independence or not is a different question entirely.
     
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  19. Avon

    Avon Yung_Shkreli

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    You and many other people have a bizarre view of what the left really is. Rest assured, Scotland's most significant export is in no danger of being culled whatsoever.
     
  20. Tropodan

    Tropodan Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    I heard the Scott's are crazy libtard now. They all voted remain.

    "The problem with Scotland is......that's it's full of Scott's!!!! *laughter*"

    -King LongShanks
     
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