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The Boat Dilemma (The Dark Knight)

I'm not a big fan of American foreign policy, but we're hardly the only country exploiting others, and America does a lot of good too. We're the main force stopping Russia from having more power and control, and we also had a large role in stopping the nazis in ww2.



Honestly all first world nations exploit the third world and always have, it's not a black and white world but a grey one.



Also iirc you're in Canada. You guys have the luxury of staying put of conflicts because we are right next to you and are an ally. If it wasn't for America many nations including yours would have to get their hands dirty facing the threat of China and Russia.


It's like the citizen that questions batmans methods as being too harsh, when they're not going to do shit about the Joker, and someone has to.


Edit: We are also the reason that South Korea doesn't get levelled by north korea, Russia hasn't absorbed their former territories, Israel isn't overrun by their neighbors, and smaller nations feel confident enough to buck up to China and Japan over control of the seas.


The threat of American intervention singlehandedly ALLOWS many of our allies to have their independence while they talk shit about us.

That is true to an extent, but America doesn't help any of those countries out of the goodness of their hearts. They have made satellite states out of Canada and others, and we're all sinking together by following America's suicidal lead on climate change.
 
That is true to an extent, but America doesn't help any of those countries out of the goodness of their hearts. They have made satellite states out of Canada and others, and we're all sinking together by following America's suicidal lead on climate change.

Sure we don't, no nation does. I was just arguing against your black and white good guys vs bad guys mentality.


We're not the bad guys while everyone else are the good guys. If anything we're the reason Russia and China have to resort to Industry to try to dominate instead of warfare.


These negatives you've mentioned aren't exclusive to America or any other country. Every nation is selfish and power hungry to some extent, and that is held in check by more powerful nations.


Maybe some day humanity will move beyond tribalism, and the greed and selfishness that come with that mindset. We're not there yet though.
 
Sure we don't, no nation does. I was just arguing against your black and white good guys vs bad guys mentality.


We're not the bad guys while everyone else are the good guys. If anything we're the reason Russia and China have to resort to Industry to try to dominate instead of warfare.


These negatives you've mentioned aren't exclusive to America or any other country. Every nation is selfish and power hungry to some extent, and that is held in check by more powerful nations.


Maybe some day humanity will move beyond tribalism, and the greed and selfishness that come with that mindset. We're not there yet though.

American is rich as sin and American culture cannot produce a society that treats human beings with decency and respect. America is ruled by a cult of individuality.

You compare American foreign policy to the rest of the world's - what other wealthy nation treats it's own citizens with such contempt and scorn? The "good guys" are not nations, nations are neither good or bad, but America as an entity is a destructive force that is ruining the planet. The good guys...they are average citizens, or poor, and the people trying to keep violence and polution from ruining the world.

Russia is forced to leave it's citizens out to dry because if they don't invest in their military the U.S. will continue to isolate and punish them, the same is true for China. That's not to say everything bad in the world is America's fault, but America stopped being able to call itself "the good guys" a long, long time ago. You can't invade countries that can't defend themselves and consider yourself the good guy. America is ruled by a cult of self-delusion and individuality - that cult is its guiding line politically.
 
American is rich as sin and American culture cannot produce a society that treats human beings with decency and respect. America is ruled by a cult of individuality.

You compare American foreign policy to the rest of the world's - what other wealthy nation treats it's own citizens with such contempt and scorn? The "good guys" are not nations, nations are neither good or bad, but America as an entity is a destructive force that is ruining the planet. The good guys...they are average citizens, or poor, and the people trying to keep violence and polution from ruining the world.

Russia is forced to leave it's citizens out to dry because if they don't invest in their military the U.S. will continue to isolate and punish them, the same is true for China. That's not to say everything bad in the world is America's fault, but America stopped being able to call itself "the good guys" a long, long time ago. You can't invade countries that can't defend themselves and consider yourself the good guy. America is ruled by a cult of self-delusion and individuality - that cult is its guiding line politically.

Eh like I said our foreign policy sucks and our leadership is corrupt, pretty much every nation has corrupt leadership to some extent. It's worth noting we have one of the most diverse populations in the world, and despite that fact our crime rates have been dropping for decades. We are also FAR more progressive than countries like China and Russia, as we consider religion, race, gender, and sexuality to be protected classes.


Let's not act like China and Russia are innocent. Russia was in the middle east going to war for resources long before we were. They're not great towards their people, and they're a horrible neighbor. Constantly poking to see how aggressive they can get without American intervention.


Make no mistake without the threat of american response they would have made a play to take over the rest of Europe long ago.



China is a complete cesspool. They don't believe in human rights, freedom of religion, fair and safe workplaces, and they give zero fucks about completely destroying their environment in their massive rush toward industrialization.


There's a reason none of the profits of that labor are going towards helping improve quality of life. They're primarily interested in raising their military power and level of influence through industry, so they can become a more powerful nation.


You mention the government mistreating citizens, but we have far more freedom then citizens in Russia or China, and that's not even debatable.


It's interesting that you single out America when China and Russia are worse in every measurable way except ARGUABLY military expansion/intervention, but that is a recent development and entirely due to American intervention.



If it wasn't for us China, Russia, Iran, and North korea would be fucking up their neighbors and taking their territories. They come to the negotiating table because they know we can fuck them up.
 
Eh like I said our foreign policy sucks and our leadership is corrupt, pretty much every nation has corrupt leadership to some extent. It's worth noting we have one of the most diverse populations in the world, and despite that fact our crime rates have been dropping for decades. We are also FAR more progressive than countries like China and Russia, as we consider religion, race, gender, and sexuality to be protected classes.


Let's not act like China and Russia are innocent. Russia was in the middle east going to war for resources long before we were. They're not great towards their people, and they're a horrible neighbor. Constantly poking to see how aggressive they can get without American intervention.


Make no mistake without the threat of american response they would have made a play to take over the rest of Europe long ago.



China is a complete cesspool. They don't believe in human rights, freedom of religion, fair and safe workplaces, and they give zero fucks about completely destroying their environment in their massive rush toward industrialization.


There's a reason none of the profits of that labor are going towards helping improve quality of life. They're primarily interested in raising their military power and level of influence through industry, so they can become a more powerful nation.


You mention the government mistreating citizens, but we have far more freedom then citizens in Russia or China, and that's not even debatable.


It's interesting that you single out America when China and Russia are worse in every measurable way except ARGUABLY military expansion/intervention, but that is a recent development and entirely due to American intervention.



If it wasn't for us China, Russia, Iran, and North korea would be fucking up their neighbors and taking their territories. They come to the negotiating table because they know we can fuck them up.

The point I'm trying to make is they wouldn't feel the need to invest in their military so heavily if they weren't so worried about American power. That's the only reason I brought up Russia and China.

And yes, Russia and China treat their citizens very badly. No doubt they spy on them and imprison them and outright kill them very often, with no real legal recourses.

However, those countries are not nearly as rich as America. When you compare America to other wealthy nations, how does America look, when it comes to the treatment of their own citizens?

And let's not forget, America attacked and destroyed more poor countries in the last 50 years than Russia or China.

However, I think you made plenty of good points and I appreciate the conversation. I had a shitty day and getting into a little political discussion on sherdog oddly cheered me up.
 
The point I'm trying to make is they wouldn't feel the need to invest in their military so heavily if they weren't so worried about American power. That's the only reason I brought up Russia and China.

And yes, Russia and China treat their citizens very badly. No doubt they spy on them and imprison them and outright kill them very often, with no real legal recourses.

However, those countries are not nearly as rich as America. When you compare America to other wealthy nations, how does America look, when it comes to the treatment of their own citizens?

And let's not forget, America attacked and destroyed more poor countries in the last 50 years than Russia or China.

However, I think you made plenty of good points and I appreciate the conversation. I had a shitty day and getting into a little political discussion on sherdog oddly cheered me up.

Lol I know how that is. I got a tooth pulled today and I'm just laying here recuperating.


I was mainly trying to point out that their military spending comes from a desire to dominate as much as any fear of America.


As much as I disapprove of our foreign policy ( in fact I would go as far as calling what we are doing war crimes), I think it's important to note that a lot of other countries WOULD be invading their neighbors if they didn't fear US intervention.


As far as treatment goes, America treats it's citizens fairly well. Our government is corrupted by influence from corporations, but we DO have equality and freedom of religion, gender, sexuality, race, etc.


It could be better, especially for the poor, but all in all it's fairly decent especially for an incredibly diverse population. You won't starve here and although it's difficult, there are many paths to better yourself and everyone has access to them.


If you have a dream here and you work hard and make good decisions you can achieve it, even if you weren't born here. If it was awful here it wouldn't be so diverse due to the constant immigration.
 
The supposed profundity of that scene is lost on all save comic book fans and the impressionable youth.
 
Fanboys: A great moral dilemma that not establishes the antagonist's character but also provide's an interesting sub-plot for the film.

Reality: Nolan running out of shit so he binged watch Saw movies.
 
I would have expected the joker to have rigged it so no matter which key turns both boats blow up.

Why would I trust my fate to the psycho who rigged this in the first place?
 
if you jumped overboard you wouldnt be killing a boatload of ppl.


you would be killing two. Joker said if ppl try to get away he blows both.

I don't consider that me killing two boat loads of people. I consider that some psycho blowing up some boats when people try to get away from the bombs he plants on them. See that situation is all about perspective. Me grabbing the trigger and blowing up a boat there is no perspective other than I was put into a hard situation and I choose to kill a shit load of people to save myself.
 
I would have expected the joker to have rigged it so no matter which key turns both boats blow up.

Why would I trust my fate to the psycho who rigged this in the first place?

why do i remember the joker saying this? I'm positive he admitted this much to the batman

did i just have a beringshtein bears moment?
 
I don't consider that me killing two boat loads of people. I consider that some psycho blowing up some boats when people try to get away from the bombs he plants on them. See that situation is all about perspective. Me grabbing the trigger and blowing up a boat there is no perspective other than I was put into a hard situation and I choose to kill a shit load of people to save myself.


it is the same thing, just worse. some mental gymnastics dont change that. you know if you run both boats get blown up but you choose to run, valuing your life over everybody elses. at least if you had the courage to pull the trigger yourself you would have saved a bunch of ppl. instead your cowardly, self serving ways only saved yourself.

shameful.
 
it is the same thing, just worse. some mental gymnastics dont change that. you know if you run both boats get blown up but you choose to run, valuing your life over everybody elses. at least if you had the courage to pull the trigger yourself you would have saved a bunch of ppl. instead your cowardly, self serving ways only saved yourself.

shameful.

Yea I just don't see it that way. I never pulled the trigger someone else did and killed a shit load of people just cause I was trying to run. Running to me would just be the best option cause I'd never feel bad about it. In my mind it is clear as day that the Joker killed those people not me. I didn't plant the bombs, I didn't blow them up, all I did was try and save myself and get back to my daughter. If she's with me then all I did was try to save myself and my daughter.
 
Yea I just don't see it that way. I never pulled the trigger someone else did and killed a shit load of people just cause I was trying to run. Running to me would just be the best option cause I'd never feel bad about it. In my mind it is clear as day that the Joker killed those people not me. I didn't plant the bombs, I didn't blow them up, all I did was try and save myself and get back to my daughter. If she's with me then all I did was try to save myself and my daughter.


so if your entire family was on the boat with you, what now??


or if they were on the boat and you werent and some slickster like you ran and got them blown up?? you would respect his decision and there would be no scorn??


lol you would be viewed as the most cowardly man in the world if you did this. prob get murdered.
 
so if your entire family was on the boat with you, what now??


or if they were on the boat and you werent and some slickster like you ran and got them blown up?? you would respect his decision and there would be no scorn??


lol you would be viewed as the most cowardly man in the world if you did this. prob get murdered.

Then I tell my entire family lets run and jump in. In fact I'd be telling everyone on the boat that before I jump. I'd say "I'm jumping everyone lets just jump and make a run for it". If someone ran off the boat and my family died you think I'm going to be mad at the guy that tried to run and didn't play games with a psycho who planted bombs on two different boats and made up some rules that I'm supposed to believe he'll stick to? I'm going to be mad at the guy who planted the bombs now the guy who tried to survive.

I think the difference here is that you would believe whatever rules the Joker told you and I wouldn't believe a fucking word that comes out of his mouth. You would pull the trigger confident that only the other boat would blow up I wouldn't be so sure that is true. He could have rigged it so whoever pushes the button their boat blows up or both do. Who knows because the guy clearly doesn't follow the law saw why would he care about following his own rules?
 
Easily one of the dumbest things about that movie. I would have raced to turn the key before the other boat turned theirs.

Do you enjoy life in prison? I would rather risk death than guarantee life in prison. I would have just jumped off the damn boat!
 
Do you enjoy life in prison? I would rather risk death than guarantee life in prison. I would have just jumped off the damn boat!
Come on, there is no way the DA would indict you given the situation. Hell, I doubt anyone on the boat would reveal you did it.
 
Then I tell my entire family lets run and jump in. In fact I'd be telling everyone on the boat that before I jump. I'd say "I'm jumping everyone lets just jump and make a run for it". If someone ran off the boat and my family died you think I'm going to be mad at the guy that tried to run and didn't play games with a psycho who planted bombs on two different boats and made up some rules that I'm supposed to believe he'll stick to? I'm going to be mad at the guy who planted the bombs now the guy who tried to survive.

I think the difference here is that you would believe whatever rules the Joker told you and I wouldn't believe a fucking word that comes out of his mouth. You would pull the trigger confident that only the other boat would blow up I wouldn't be so sure that is true. He could have rigged it so whoever pushes the button their boat blows up or both do. Who knows because the guy clearly doesn't follow the law saw why would he care about following his own rules?


I was pondering the idea it was a trick designed by The Joker. The concept is by turning the key it detonates the (key turner's) boat. The greedy person who tried to blow up the other person's boat instead blows up their own boat.
 
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