The Blonde Devil (Unknown Vale Tudo Legend)

Wow...

Ive heard the name of the guy who defeated Carlson, but like someone mentioned, there were some talks of how legit that decision was?
 
Wow...

Ive heard the name of the guy who defeated Carlson, but like someone mentioned, there were some talks of how legit that decision was?

what are the details of the sketchy win?

the history of vale tudo in northern brazil needs to be told. the tv show ran for years, there's newspaper accounts, a treasure trove of information is out there somewhere and should be collected for posterity.

there was a promoter I ran across who had a large scrapbook of the events he promoted, I'll try to find the links later and post them.
 
There have been talks about it being sketchy. Which I am inclined to believe as Vale Tudo was very wild at the time. But it has also been noted that Euclides has documented matches in the hundreds...without a single loss! This isn't a Rickson aura magic record, people were at these fights. Can you imagine fighting hundreds of times and never losing!

Insane.

Anyway...as a counter to that....this quote is from Armando Wriedt (One of Helios most profound students), who was present at the fight in question.

This was in Tatame magazine.
ArmandoCarlsonQuote.jpg



I say, both men are badass and we can only fruitlessly speculate on the rest. :)
 
From what I've read, here's why the fight is sketchy.

1) The rules: Carlson was told that it would be no time limit/no judges and when he showed up, both things were changed. The fight was in Bahia, Euclides backyard. The crowd and referees were heavily pro-Euclides.

2) Carlson got Euclides in a rear naked choke and Euclides boys reached into the ring and pulled him out. According to Oswaldo Paqueta, Euclides liberally left the ring and, at one point in the fight, was outside the ring for almost 10 minutes.(Got that off a post Paqueta made on the Brazilian Vale Tudo board). According to Paqueta, Carlson said the fight actually ended because he refused to return to the ring after Euclides had left it.

3) In Tatame magazine, Oswaldo Paqueta said Helio and Carlson both wanted a rematch and were refused. He also says that none of this stuff was talked about the fight when Carlson was alive because he'd have refuted it. Euclides and his supporters say that he wanted a rematch,too but was refused. I don't think we'll ever know the truth. Fact was that Carlson was 39 or 40 at the time with a wife and 3 kids. He was wrapping up his fight career.

To give a rough translation of a quote from Paqueta in Tatame, "People are now talking shit about this fight. Why didn't they talk when Carlson was alive and could respond?". Carlson always said Euclides was a great fighter. I didn't want to get into a pissing match in the Justin Wren thread on MMA.TV because I think its nice that he posted all that stuff for Euclides. But it seems somewhat disrespectful to me to claim that Euclides whipped Carlson when it was a sketchy fight that was won on a judge's decision in the guy's hometown.
 
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Here's a good interview with Carlson. I think the "I didn't think I lost" thing sounds a lot like the whole "I got my ass kicked but didn't quit, so I could've won if we went on for another 30 days straight" comment the Gracies like to make.

T
How many Vale-Tudo fights were you in? Was there ever any loss?
CG
I was in eighteen Vale-Tudo fights. There was one time in Bahia (North Brazil) against Euclides Pereira, and the referees decided to give him the victory. I don't think I lost, for me that was not a loss.

Carlson Gracie interview: "Living Legend"
 
This is friggin amazing, If the Gracie clan kept this on the down low imagine what else they have kept under wraps.

This guy seems like an interesting chatracter, someone has to get an in depth interview from this fellow!

I like how you just assume that because he's unknown, it's because the Gracie clan kept it under wraps. Cause, you know, they control the media and all.
 
So...as for Pedro Hermeterios....we have people in this thread saying he was from Helio, and someone else saying he was from George. I'd be interested to know this, because I've never heard of a George Gracie lineage. So I guess he fought exclusively no gi and vale tudo, but his instructors lineage traces back to the Gracie brothers anyway?

For that matter, I just realized I have no idea where the Luta Livre guys learned their grappling from. Was it completely independent of the Maeda/Gracie line? Or was it a case like Waldemar Santana where a former student left and started a separate academy?
 
So...as for Pedro Hermeterios....we have people in this thread saying he was from Helio, and someone else saying he was from George. I'd be interested to know this, because I've never heard of a George Gracie lineage. So I guess he fought exclusively no gi and vale tudo, but his instructors lineage traces back to the Gracie brothers anyway?

For that matter, I just realized I have no idea where the Luta Livre guys learned their grappling from. Was it completely independent of the Maeda/Gracie line? Or was it a case like Waldemar Santana where a former student left and started a separate academy?

This does not really answer your questions but it is a very interesting read similar to your line of thinking...

Old Wounds | FIGHT! Magazine
 
So...as for Pedro Hermeterios....we have people in this thread saying he was from Helio, and someone else saying he was from George. I'd be interested to know this, because I've never heard of a George Gracie lineage. So I guess he fought exclusively no gi and vale tudo, but his instructors lineage traces back to the Gracie brothers anyway?

Pedro was one of, maybe THE greatest of carlos and helio's students iirc ( i think he was certainly one of the most successful vale tudo fighters representing them) - he beat George Gracie in a vale tudo match (choked him out) so i don't recall him being a george student. Nahum Luiz Rabay (another 9th dan) springs to mind as a George Gracie student.

I mention Pedro as being a Helio 9th dan since, despite being a student of carlos and helio, helio was the one who made him a 9th dan iirc.

This (his) website has some good hiostory on it
Home | Pedro Hemeterio Jiu Jitsu

some nice pics too: Fotos | Pedro Hemeterio Jiu Jitsu

This is a note of his passing:
Pedro Hemet
 
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The Gracies have certainly done a lot for the sport, but I wonder how much of their legacy is actually legitimate and how much exists simply because they were in a position to write their own history. For those of us who don't live in Brazil and don't have direct connections with people who were in Brazil during the early days of BJJ and Vale Tudo, most of what we "know" about those times comes either from members of the Gracie family or their students.

Certainly, the sheer size of the family and the vast number of them that are/have been involved with BJJ means they have had a huge impact in terms of the number of students that come from the Gracie lineage. And of course they were the ones who spread BJJ to America, started the UFC, and promoted the art/sport to the world. And they deserve a lot of credit for that. But all that stuff about how they were the ones responsible for the evolution of BJJ from Judo just seems fishy to me. There were a lot of Japanese immigrants moving to Brazil at the time, and certainly there were many other Brazilians training Judo and competing in Vale Tudo. And it seems that their impact has largely been minimized in favor of the questionable idea that a single family was responsible for everything.

I also find it interesting that almost every high-profile loss the Gracies had during those early days is protested as not being a "fair" fight, or that the rules "weren't clear", or something along those lines, while at the same time they claim ridiculous and unverifiable winning records (see: Rickson). It would be interesting to see a database compiled of verified vale tudo and BJJ results from those early days to see just how successful the members of the Gracie family were in comparison with their peers. Were they really the best, or were they simply the ones with the financial means and business acumen to market the art/sport (and themselves) the best?

Please note, I'm not bashing the Gracies. I respect what they've done for BJJ and MMA, and I know that it is fairly unlikely that I would be training BJJ right now if it weren't for their contributions in promoting the art outside their home country (maybe somebody else would have done it eventually, but who knows?) I've just always been the sort of person to think critically about information I'm given and the sources it came from, and it seems to me that most of us outside Brazil (and given the sheer size of the family and the number of students they've trained over the years, even a lot of people in Brazil) are getting all our information from a single, and potentially biased, source. That's why threads like this are interesting - it's not every day that we get to hear something about those early days that didn't come directly or indirectly from the Gracie family.
 
That's why threads like this are interesting - it's not every day that we get to hear something about those early days that didn't come directly or indirectly from the Gracie family.

Um, there's a ton of history out there like that. My guess is you haven't done much reading or digging, and if so then for not that long. For the record, this guy's instructor is apparently of Helio's lineage, having trained under one of his top students.
 
the only other jorge/george gracie student i can recall is Carlos Shines, but i don't know anything about him.
 
Awesome read.
he reminds me of what fedor will be in say 50 years.
 
I also find it interesting that almost every high-profile loss the Gracies had during those early days is protested as not being a "fair" fight, or that the rules "weren't clear", or something along those lines, while at the same time they claim ridiculous and unverifiable winning records (see: Rickson).

Firstly, I think its silly to refer to the Gracies as some Borg-like group where they all function as a large,single unit. Anyone who reads the history of the Gracies knows its like any family and there are divisions and quarrels all over it. Carlson, Rolls, Rickson,Robson, etc.. have all had issues with other members of the clan. I remember reading an interview where Carlson calls Reylson a retard.

Comparing the Euclides/Carlson fight to Rickson's 400-0 or other Gracie stuff doesn't jive since you can find stuff about the fight online. What originally rubbed me the wrong way about the post was, as Oswaldo Paqueta said, the fact that no one said Carlson got smashed when he was alive. Seems dudes talk smack about Carlson Sr. now that he is no longer around to defend himself.
 
Love BJJ MMA history! Thanks for that awesome read!!!
 
Love hearing about this too. It's funny how BJJ and Vale Tudo actually have a deeper and older history than most "traditional" martial arts.
 
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