Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by WaCkO92, Mar 28, 2008.
what do you guys think of them for conditioning
The other day I got pissed off for living in Finland (= this time of the year it's treadmill time, and I hate running indoors). So I figured that a nice idea for a HIIT is not to try to play with the treadmill at all or time things myself.
So I put on a max incline, a healthly little sprint speed and just jump on and off along the buzzers on my tabatha MP3. Which was a good thing I had that, I don't think I even saw the clock at the last minutes of the exercise.
I think for conditioning, they just may work...
cockysprinter, why would you not recommend Tabata sprints to someone looking to improve their conditioning? I don't understand why you would not use a form of interval training that has benefits for both the anaerobic and aerobic energy systems?
I find tabata intervals great to add to my conditioning training, whether as sprints, hill sprints, on a rowing machine, cross trainer, stationary bike etc.
But Tabata intervals are not for beginners and they are high intencity.
They're awesome, though I usually up the time a bit to 5:00 for sprints, while keeping the same work/rest ratio.
Can't say I've ever done "strict" Tabata sprints on a treadmill.
Xtrainer: By 5:00, you mean your total time on the treadmill is 5min?
What? No. I can't sprint on a treadmill, the ones at my gym only go up to 12 MPH (5:00 mile pace). Plus, "sprinting" on the treadmill is equivalent to "squatting" in the smith machine.
By 5:00, I mean 10 rounds of 20 seconds all out sprint/10 seconds rest.
I meant sprinting outside not on a treadmill. I hill of about 800m is great for doing tabata sprints on.
because of lack of quality work. theres no way you can do any kind of workout like that without pacing yourself or fading. if youre not running quality reps you dont know if your conditioning is improving. i touch on the kind of protocols i would use in this thread:
edit: im all for tabatas on bodyweight exercises because the time it takes to do a rep is longer and someone in good shape can handle it, but i dont think its a good protocol for running.
^I have the exact opposite opinion. I believe as the time per rep increases, the aplicability of Tabata intervals goes down. Consider burpees: Doing sets of 10 burpees with 10 seconds of rest in between is much harder doing them Tabata-style, because a good set of 10 burpees is going to take longer than the 20 seconds that Tabata intervals allow for.
(Note: This does not mean I think Tabata burpees are useless. They make a good finisher, for example, but as a workout in and of themselves, they leave a lot to be desired).
Also, what is wrong with fading, for the purposes of a combat athlete? If you don't train to the point where you "fade" eventually, you're not doing any real conditioning. Judging by your name, I would guess you are a competitive sprinter, so you are probably (and rightfully) concerned with your sprint times/form. As a grappler, I like to see my times go down, but that's secondary to the actual condioning benefit I want to get from sprinting. It doesn't bother me if my 8th Tabata interval is a bit slower than my 1st. It's more a question of "How much gas do I have, and am I improving that attribute?" I don't sprint to get better at sprinting, I sprint to improve my energy systems for grappling.
However, if my first priority was time, I would not use Tabatas, at least not when I was going for PR times or trying to perfect form.
As an analogy to strength training, I could either do a set of 20 rep squats or some heavy singles. Both have tremendous value, but obviously, the 20 rep squats wouldn't tell you much about my max, and heavy singles wouldn't tell you much about my work capacity or endurance.
Cockysprinter, after reading the other thread I have to say I don't completely agree with you.
While I think that longer runs such as 3 to 5 mile or 5 to 8km are good for aerobic conditioning they do not address the changing intencity of a fight. And I also think that the intervals you discribed are also good, but the long rest periods aren't mma sport specific.
you also wrote referring to tabata intervals
If the tabata intervals are performed in the manner that the Dr I. Tabata designed them, then no you cannot (and should not) pace yourself. The idea was to perform up to 8 intervals of 20 seconds of all out intencity, with 10 seconds rest between work periods. There is no way you can avoid fading, why should you? A fighter is going to fade in a fight during the latter stages of a round. And learning to push yourself and work under the stress of high intencity intervals is good physiological and psychological preparation for the demands of a fight.
Look at why the tabata intervals were designed, to boost speed skating performance through greater anaerobic capacity and an increase in VO2Max. In the original study olympic level athletes did the intervals on a stationary bike, for 6 to 8 cycles of 20 secs work 10 secs rest. Why only 6 cycles sometimes instead of 8? Because there were times when they could not perform all 8 due to fatigue, and remember that these were top level athletes who knew what hard training was about. My point is that they faded, but fading is part of the tabata protocol.
I also add into my training 400m intervals with 90 or 60 secs rest and 100m intervals with 60 secs rest as well as 4 km mountain runs. I am not suggestiing that tabata intervals be the only form of conditioning training a fighter does but I believe they should be part of a conditioning program, along with longer intervals and LSD conditioning.
the idea is to 'fade' later rather than sooner, because aiming to fade in 4 minutes doesnt do you any good. also were not talking about a one or two percent drop, but a much more significant one.
if every rep after the first is of significantly lower quality, then it doesnt matter how 'conditioned' you think you are, you arent conditioned. if you can run 180m in your first rep, but only 90 on your last, how much juice do you have towards the end? the idea behind intensive tempo is to do fast (or more accurately medium) work under hellacious conditions. working slowly painfully doesnt do you any good.
btw, i ran track for seven years. now i train bjj with an eye on mma later.
i simply meant that longer runs have their place. those are best for work capacity and gpp, or training for training.
the way i understand the study, the workout was stopped when the intensity faded (work quality):
also note the sports tabata protocols would be prescribed for: 400-1500m, sprint cycling, etc. those sports are not remotely related to combat sports.
id stick with your other running protocols, and make sure to keep an eye on your rep times. quality is what determines rest, not your perceived intensity. once again, im all for tabata protocols, just not paired with running. one version i have done in the past is three or four in a row. you pick three or four exercises (squats, pushups, leg raises, burpees for example) and rotate them every interval. the end result was like being hit by a truck.
I understand the principles of intensive tempo, Extensive tempo and Continuous tempo conditioning. The work to rest ratios are around 1:1 to 1:5. Whereas the Tabata Intervals work to rest is 2:1.
Its great that you have a track background, and best of luck with your current bjj and future mma plans.
However, it stills strikes me as unusual that a person with your background would dismiss a training protocol that was designed to help sprinters at the elite level (what are speed skaters, they are sprinters on ice). The tabata protocol was shown to tax both the aerobic and anaerobic paths to their maximum which resulted in an unprecented improvement in anaerobic and aerobic capacity. No other exercise study has produced the same results simultaneously.
True but the changing intencity levels of the protocol do make it a more sports specific conditioning drill than an 8 mile run.
As for various ways to perform tabata drills I have tried bodyweight and weighted exercises, such as squats and I have also used other machines such as a concept 2 rower and stationary bike.
I just read your reply where you stated
I had thought you were against tabata intervals regardless of what form (i.e. running, rowing or bodyweight).
As I said before I use them as part of an overall conditioning program they are not the focus of my conditioning. My 5 minute sparring rounds are the focus of my mma conditioning.
i prefer burpees
even though they kill
its good to see that youre familiar with tempo, i dont think ive heard anyone else on this site mention it. its always 'HIIT is teh greatest!!!!111oneone' it gets frustrating when you cant even use the same vocab.:icon_cry2 i never get to hear about micro, meso and macro cycles. people say 'deloading' all the time. anyways, i should end the rant before it gets started.
yes the set rest period makes it more sport specific, but i wouldnt do longer runs to be sport specific, it would be gpp or recovery to the max. a further reason i dont like running and tabatas mixed for grappling and mma is the nature of the sport itself. in boxing or kickboxing, there is not as much handling of your opponents entire bodyweight. there are longer bouts (moreso in boxing) where the emphasis is moving a small weight over a period of time (hands up to 30 minutes). in a sport like boxing, running has a much more logical place. however, in mma and grappling, there is a lot more handling of your opponents bodyweight, and strength is a huge factor. if you are a grappler specializing in body locks and certain kinds of shots, bodyweight tabatas make much more sense than running ever will, simply because you may have to take down and control your opponent repeatedly. a fighter that is primarily a striker will have a lighter aerobic training system, but at some point he has to deal with the strength of a fighter that specializes in said takedowns. he will also need the conditioning that come from bodyweight tabata drills.
but yes, i definitely like tabatas. i think the tabata protocol has a place in almost every training program except maybe jumpers, weightlifters, and other sports where you move minimally with lots of rest.. though once again i wouldnt pair it with running because i highly disagree with conditioning work that results in a serious performance dropoff. at that point youre not training performance.
and btw, good luck with your ufc fight.
I use Tabata's extensively but it seems my muscular endurance fails before my "Cardio" if that makes any sense...
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