Star Wars Discussion: Obi-Wan vs. Mace Windu

[Fat Abbot]

Mace was great with a sabre but his force skills were just ok (at his level).

Palps, Vader Dooku, Yoda were all much, much stronger with force abilities. Probably Obi as well but just slightly.

In reguards to Dooku and Palps, they weren't that far apart at all. Palps was better with the force, but Dooku was better with a sabre. Dooku was definitely better than Mace (as good with a sabre and stronger in the force) who beat Palps. Dooku takes it 4 out of 10 times.

And Dooku didn't run from Yoda, he ran from all the Jedi. There were already 3 there and more were on their way(he could sense his companions had lost the battle). He'd have been the most retarded sith ever if he'd stayed.

 

[phesyx040]

Mace was great with a sabre but his force skills were just ok (at his level).

Palps, Vader Dooku, Yoda were all much, much stronger with force abilities. Probably Obi as well but just slightly.

In reguards to Dooku and Palps, they weren't that far apart at all. Palps was better with the force, but Dooku was better with a sabre. Dooku was definitely better than Mace (as good with a sabre and stronger in the force) who beat Palps. Dooku takes it 4 out of 10 times.

And Dooku didn't run from Yoda, he ran from all the Jedi. There were already 3 there and more were on their way(he could sense his companions had lost the battle). He'd have been the most retarded sith ever if he'd stayed.

3 Jedi were there, but one had a hole burnt through his femur and an arm injury. The other one had no arm. The rest of the Jedi were involved in the ground battle which was far from completely over and there was no indication in the movie that more were on the way. Dooku would have finished Yoda if he could but he couldn't, which necessitated his retreat. If Yoda is more powerful then Mace with the force then the movie surely implies that Mace is at least Yoda's equal in saber technique.

Dooku>Palpatine? Based on what observation? I saw both fighting Yoda to stalemates. Mace elevated saber combat to its highest attainable form.

Saber Dueling-wise Yoda=Dooku and Palpatine.

Surely Mace is at least=Yoda

Dooku won two utterly noncompetitive saber duels against Obi Wan.

Mace would school Obi Wan. Saber or Force. You don't share the highest spot on the Jedi bloody council by being weaker then a lesser Jedi in Obi Wan in the force and with saber skills it's no contest.

 

[phesyx040]

I'd say the reason Obi-Wan would have an advantage in a Mustafar sort of situation is that aggression tends to be disrupted by impediments, while defense is enhanced by them.

To be aggressive, one must have liberty of movement. TO be defensive, one is BENEFITTED from having less liberty to move around. You can take advantage of close quarters to limit the means of attack available to your opponent.

At no point did Anakin seem to have an advantage in his aggression against Obi Wan on Mustafar.

I actually think a "neutral ground" favours Mace slightly, due to allowing him unfettered freedom to attack.

I can agree with this.

Mustafar type battleground, they're equal, maybe. Otherwise Windu owns.

 

[Aunty Dana**]

Dooku v. Mace is actually a really good match up. Sad that we didn't get to see something like that.

I don't recall if they ever fight in the EU.

We know from the EU that Dooku, Mace, and Yoda would regularly spar. They were considered equals in skill, albeit in wildly different styles.

I could swear I read something on wookieepedia about this. I'll try and find it for you.

Edit: found it

"Dooku also left the medical center, but was attacked by Mace Windu. Dooku was outmaneuvered by Windu after a short duel, however his MagnaGuards grappled the Jedi, disarming him and dragging him into a pit while Dooku headed for the evacuation point, rescuing the damaged Grievous"

 

[Fat Abbot]

3 Jedi were there, but one had a hole burnt through his femur and an arm injury. The other one had no arm. The rest of the Jedi were involved in the ground battle which was far from completely over and there was no indication in the movie that more were on the way.

You know when else Anakin had no arm? When he killed Sideous.

Injured or not they were elite jedi knights and still dangerous when they recovered. Dooku and Yoda were clearly at a stalemate, a battle like that would have taken awhile and in that time he could have had atleast 2 more opponents.

He would have been a retard to stay and fight, it was a lose lose. Say the otyher Jedi weren't coming, had he slayed Yoda the other Jedi would have felt it and atleast a few of them would have been on there way.

Dooku would have finished Yoda if he could but he couldn't, which necessitated his retreat.

Esxactly. They were too evenly matched and since he couldnt get him out of there early he couldn't stay because he weould have been at a tactical disadvantage.

If Yoda is more powerful then Mace with the force then the movie surely implies that Mace is at least Yoda's equal in saber technique.

Agreed.

Dooku>Palpatine? Based on what observation? I saw both fighting Yoda to stalemates. Mace elevated saber combat to its highest attainable form.

Never said that. I said Dooku would take it 4 out of 10

Saber Dueling-wise Yoda=Dooku and Palpatine.

Surely Mace is at least=Yoda

I'd say they were all about equal. I'd say Dooku and Mace were probably slightly stronger with a sabre than their masters, but weaker in the force. Although I'd say that Dooku's force abilitys were surely stronger than windus.

Dooku won two utterly noncompetitive saber duels against Obi Wan.

Mace would school Obi Wan. Saber or Force. You don't share the highest spot on the Jedi bloody council by being weaker then a lesser Jedi in Obi Wan in the force and with saber skills it's no contest.

When Dooku was a Jedi he was very high in the order as well and one of it's best duelists. When he became a sith he became more powerful than that.

I think Mace was a more winnable fight for obi because mace was more agressive and didnt have dookus force abilities.

The Jedi council is more about politics and going with the herd than it's about power. Anakin was never officially a master but he was stronger than mst of the council put together.

Even still I picked Mace to win 6 out of 10. I think Obi would win a few because he did well against that style and he did have a habit of having a horseshoe stuck up his ass against guys that were clearly better than him Maul (at the time), Anakin.

 

[phesyx040]

Go back a few pages on my post in favour of Obi-Wan. I'd like your point-by-point of my argument.

Lol, I'm totally gonna, but I work in 6 hrs so my no doubt long, point by point, reply to your well thought out (and very long) post will have to wait for tomorrow.

A question though, in preview of my own analysis, if Obi Wan is really so perfect defensively why did it take one of the 'big 3' duelists less than a minute to own him? That's with Dooku playing with him a bit first.

Dooku is apparently vastly better then Obi Wan in a one on one fight. Even in the second where he has Anakin's help for the first while he was completely ineffectual and was handled quick and clean.

I just see no justification in the fluff for Dooku being vastly superior to Mace.

I go back to my earlier illustration. Dooku couldn't do anything to anything to Yoda in a duel. Palpatine couldn't do anything significant to Yoda in a one on one fight. Mace beat Palpatine legitimately I believe.

Really, picking Obi over Mace makes no sense.

Mace beat a sith lord who trained Maul (who got the better Qui Gonn and Obi working in concert in a prolonged duel, losing only to a horribly represented surprise blow) from scratch. Maul wasn't even a Jedi previously. He got all his kick-two-Jedi's-asses-at-once skill from Palpatine. Mace beat Palpatine one on one. Palpatine couldn't beat Yoda. Dooku couldn't beat Yoda. Yoda couldn't beat Palpatine, but it seems to be implied that he was starting to edge Dooku.

The best saber combatants were indeed Yoda, Palpatine, Dooku and Mace.

Only Mace could beat Palpatine.

Form 7 is only attainable after first mastering multiple saber forms. I see no reason why Mace, the more experienced, skilled and powerful Jedi with the force, who knows Obi Wan's style and likely played a significant role in his training, would fight a stupidly aggressive fight against him just because you think his aggressive style demands it. Even if he did fight very aggressively, in my books that just means it would look similar to Obi vs Dooku 1 and 2.

You made several other points, about grievous and all. I'll tackle that tomorrow.

Edit: ok, one quick point about grievous, and it is a reiteration of an earlier post where I explained why it wasn't too far fetched for Palpatine to dispatch Fisto and the other 2 Jedi masters with such ease. Jedi of that era had relatively weak saber dueling skills. The last time your average Jedi had to deal with skilled saber combatants was at least a millennia before Yoda was born. Obi Wan was special and had recent experience against Maul, another form 7 practitioner, and twice against Dooku. And, he's Obi Wan Kenobi....but.. Mace and Yoda would have annihilated Grievous. Grievous was trained by Dooku. Obi Wan owned Grievous almost as bad as Dooku owned Obi Wan. Kinda tells you right there how ill prepared those other Jedi were. Also, there's no solid in-movie indication that Grievous killed all those Jedi in fair one on one duels. He just had their sabers. Even if he did, meh.

Edit two: between Kenobi and Greivous, who won the single combat portion of their fight? What did Obi Wan have to resort to using to win? A gun.

 

[tlear]

Palpatine was fighting Mace and 3 others, he dispatched them but then Mace got the upper hand. It almost seemed that Mace was shocked by how good Palpatine was and it took him a while to get into it.

Obi seriously improved from 2nd to 3rd movie, he fought Anakin and beat him pretty decisively (I thought leaving him to die from burn instead of giving him a clean death was mean). I think pre 3rd movie Mace takes it easily, in the 3rd I think they are equals

 

[Fat Abbot]

Dooku beat Obi even easier in the 3rd movie than in the 2nd.

Which brings me to another point:

The Anakin who beat Dooku was much better than the Anakin who lost to Obi.

His head just really wasn't there and he wasn't stable, he'd just turned into a sith and killed all the younglings and he'd just forcechoked his broad. He still really wasn't comfortable with who he was. Plus Obi himself said Anakin was the much greater Jedi.


The Anakin that beat Dooku would beat Obi easy imo. He was a lot more focused. By the time he fought Obi he'd already gone through so much so quick he just wasn't stable. This shows why he handled obi so easily in the rematch.

Moreover I'd say that karma was responsible for Anakin losing to Obi as well. Anakin after killing the sand ppl lost his hand, he kills the younglings and he lost more. A lot of the Sith became disfigured throughout history: Malak, Scion, Sideous, it's force karma. Anakin had a stronger connection to the force than anyone so it bit him a bit harder.

 

[phesyx040]

Palpatine was fighting Mace and 3 others, he dispatched them but then Mace got the upper hand. It almost seemed that Mace was shocked by how good Palpatine was and it took him a while to get into it.

Obi seriously improved from 2nd to 3rd movie, he fought Anakin and beat him pretty decisively (I thought leaving him to die from burn instead of giving him a clean death was mean). I think pre 3rd movie Mace takes it easily, in the 3rd I think they are equals

If by decicevely you mean completely equal until that last saber stroke from a tactically superior position, then sure.

 

[Madmick]

How is he not the best star wars character ever? Get your troll crap out of here if you can't make a decent counter point.

Christopher Lee plays him.

He has a fully fleshed out lightsaber combat style and an awesome lightsaber hilt.

None of his fight scenes suck because of him.

He maintains his air of dignity throughout all his scenes.

He's sadly tragic, being betrayed in favor of the younger Anakin Skywalker.

Yes, I'm sure in 30 years young children will dress up as Count Dooku the way they have as Darth Vader, Han Solo, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Boba Fett, Chewbacca...hell, even Darth Maul. I'm sure there will be documentaries owing to the greatness of his mere voice performance, or how he captured an entire generation's imagination, and forever transformed Hollywood villains. Oh wait...

Begone, troll.

 

[KoreanZawmbie]

Vader killed the emporer and took his lightning in the process. As soon as Windu got hit with that lightning he was dead, instantly.

Vaders the one who beat him mostly, Windu was a great lightsabre duelist, without that or his hand he was fucked.

Well it's uncertain if the electric blast killed him but being blown off the building certainly did

 

[KoreanZawmbie]

I don't remember seeing this on screen in the CLone Wars toon (original).

I need to rewatch that entire awesome series.

Fawk clone wars on CN was the shitttt nostalgia all over again. Also maces prowess of he force was beastly he pretty much wiped out the whole clone army single handily

 

[Madmick]

Palpatine was fighting Mace and 3 others, he dispatched them but then Mace got the upper hand. It almost seemed that Mace was shocked by how good Palpatine was and it took him a while to get into it.

Obi seriously improved from 2nd to 3rd movie, he fought Anakin and beat him pretty decisively (I thought leaving him to die from burn instead of giving him a clean death was mean). I think pre 3rd movie Mace takes it easily, in the 3rd I think they are equals

Anakin > Obi. Remember in the 3rd movie, too, that Obi was knocked out by Dooku who was consequently destroyed by Anakin. Anakin's weakness was his pride. In non-canonical Star Wars lit he actually dueled and destroyed Mace in that scene. Anakin was the greatest saberist- and the most talented- of any Jedi of that era. That's made clear by the observation that his Midi-chlorian count massively exceeds any other known Jedi in archive history, and the fact that he carried Obi for all those years during the Clone Wars. But, as any good MMA fan should know, there's a lot more to success in fighting than even talent + skill.

I think too many in here equate saber skill to overall force acumen. That isn't how it works. The seat of Palpatine's dark power was not his skills with a lightsaber, but his sinister cunning. After all, he doesn't yoke the Republic to his will with brute force, but with deceitful political maneuvering. In the novel on which the Windu duel scene is based he actually tricks the the 4 Jedi Masters who have come for him by telling one to read his mind to see if he is a Sith Lord. He uses that opportunity to chop of his and one of the other's heads. He managed to quickly off the third before having to confront Windu who he cannot best.

The same is true of Yoda. The seat of his benevolent power isn't his skill with the saber, although he is obviously tremendous, but his wisdom. The seat of his power is that politicians and all Jedi respect this wisdom and his goodness, and follow him because they trust in his virtue and understanding. He commands the most elite (but not the greatest) military force in the universe by this respect, not by fear.

Obi-Wan represents sort of the quintessential human light side Jedi. He may not be the fastest, the smartest, or the most formidable; what makes him so exceptional is that he is joyful, wise, and most of all, persevering. In a way he is an allegorical figure for all life-force: for the triumph of light over dark. No matter what the odds are against him- how inconceivable success might seem- he manages to find the will to ultimately prevail. Life finds a way. He's like the fucking penguins.

 

[Madmick]

Having a midi-chlorian count doesn't mean anything. If Anakin had never trained in the Force a day in his life, he would have been a slave boy with some premonitions on the backwater Tattooine.

Having a high midi-chlorian count is like having great potential, as you say. But potential is not actualization. Anakin being counted as "the greatest Jedi duelist ever" is laughable. He came nowhere near that level.

I analogized Midi-Chlorians to talent, not skill, but seated the observation of skill in his routing of Dooku. Mace and him never fought. Opining a certainty of hierarchy between all these Jedi is laughable. We don't know. Anakin has as much a claim to this as any Jedi.

 

[Madmick]

He beat Dooku because of the Dark Side. He fought with anger and passion and was goaded by Palpatine to give in and murder Dooku.

Without the Dark Side, Anakin could not have bested Dooku.

Also, the Dooku/Yoda/Mace trifecta comes from comments in the novelizations and other EU.

Who cares which side of the force he channeled? He was better than Dooku. If you want to introduce non-canonical EU, then I've already pointed out that in one EU version of the Showdown on Coruscant Anakin killed Mace outright in a duel rather than betraying Mace while Mace stood over Palpatine. There's no EU version where Mace bests Anakin. Furthermore, Lucas himself commented that if Anakin hadn't suffered his injuries he would have prevailed against Palpatine alone should he had been the one engaging him.

Clearly Anakin was nowhere near his full potential and he was already the most competent saberist in the universe, or equal/second only to Yoda.

 

[Magooglie]

Yes, I'm sure in 30 years young children will dress up as Count Dooku the way they have as Darth Vader, Han Solo, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Boba Fett, Chewbacca...hell, even Darth Maul. I'm sure there will be documentaries owing to the greatness of his mere voice performance, or how he captured an entire generation's imagination, and forever transformed Hollywood villains. Oh wait...

Begone, troll.

This is best character, not most popular character.

Also, you may have missed how Count Dooku appeared in the Hobbit recently. Where's your David Prowse now?

Boba Fett sucks as a character. Where's your Jeremy Bullock now?

I like how you didn't bother mentioning Emo Anakin and Jango Fett (actually better than Boba, but paling in comparison to Dooku). Yeah, the prequel versions of Vader and Boba suck. That's their legacy. And they suck. They sure captured your imagination . . . not.

Dooku is the best character.

As I said before, get your troll crap out of here if you can't make a coherent argument against Dooku.

 

[Madmick]

It shows the source of his triumph wasn't his normal skill as a Jedi. And certainly not his skill with a sabre expressed just before. Though this is the same Anakin - perhaps even more powerful - that Obi-Wan bests, who again, just recently fell to the Dark Side.

Still irrelevant.

Alternate universe accounts are considered non-canon by default. The EU is canonical by definition unless contradicted by a higher source of canon (the movies and novelizations of the movies).

Mace doesn't best Anakin in an EU/AU account anywhere. Theoretically he gains no ground either way.

I agree that he could have - with the Dark Side of the Force. But not as a Jedi. Certainly not.

He's the greatest saberist; I don't care if it's as a Jedi or Sith or a Grey or WTFever.

And I do not think Anakin could have beat Palpatine right then and there. If Anakin had spent time honing the Dark SIde, he could have beat Palpatine.

You're not George Lucas, so it doesn't really matter what you think.

HIghly unlikely. He was riding the crest of "Dark Side" power that a Jedi gets when they fall dark. He also was immediatly ruined by Obi-Wan.

Obi was on the run the entire time, and it was made painfully obvious that hubris was the source of Anakin's failings: not so for Dooku. I expect you to counter by remarking that Obi's style was defensive, and that's why he was on the run. Except that doesn't make any sense in the context of his other fights. He was the one pursuing Maul (both with Qui-Gonn and by himself). He pursued Grievous. He pursued Fett. He even pursued Dooku, although that is the only time I can recall him giving up ground, and only to Dooku did he lose. Clearly Anakin was the stronger saberist than him. Anakin's pride, and not his skills with the saber, lost him that fight.

He was immensely powerful and his immense power helped him skirt the fact that he wasn't especially good. This helped him completely take Dooku off guard and beat him in a way that he had no expectation would happen to him. And it also helped him fight OBi-Wan for as long, though not especially well, as he did.

Nothing in the fight choreography of either fight indicates that.

 

[Aunty Dana**]

Still irrelevant.

Mace doesn't best Anakin in an EU/AU account anywhere. Theoretically he gains no ground either way.

He's the greatest saberist; I don't care if it's as a Jedi or Sith or a Grey or WTFever.

You're not George Lucas, so it doesn't really matter what you think.

Obi was on the run the entire time, and it was made painfully obvious that hubris was the source of Anakin's failings: not so for Dooku. I expect you to counter by remarking that Obi's style was defensive, and that's why he was on the run. Except that doesn't make any sense in the context of his other fights. He was the one pursuing Maul (both with Qui-Gonn and by himself). He pursued Grievous. He pursued Fett. He even pursued Dooku, although that is the only time I can recall him giving up ground, and only to Dooku did he lose. Clearly Anakin was the stronger saberist than him. Anakin's pride, and not his skills with the saber, lost him that fight.

Nothing in the fight choreography of either fight indicates that.

In regards to this, apart from Grievous, Kenobi never used the defensive form Soresu in any of those fights it was only after his loss to Dooku that he changed his style to Form III.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Sorry Crayon, he's got you there. Words from Lucas' mouth are g canon, the highest level of canon.



G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself.

I'd take Anakin of the Dooku fight over Palps as well. Or any of the Jedi, Obi beat him yeah but they're 1-1. If they fought 10 times I'd take Anakin in 9 of them.

I'll reply to the rest of what you said later. Always a pleasure nerding it up with other star wars fans.

 

[Madmick]

In regards to this, apart from Grievous, Kenobi never used the defensive form Soresu in any of those fights it was only after his loss to Dooku that he changed his style to Form III.

After the first loss. He still lost round 2.

Not irrelevant. It shows how a lesser duelist can beat a greater one.

No, Anakin deliberately trying to pull off a move that Obi explicitly tells him he cannot is an example of how a lesser duelist can overcome a greater duelist. The fact that Anakin channels the dark side to overcome Dooku is no different than Mace channeling the dark side in this super-geek talk about "Form VII". That's like saying, "Well, Jedis agree to never kick to the pearls in a cage fight, but Anakin kicked Dooku in the pearls, and even though that move is routine in Dooku's repertoire, it's cheating and he didn't win fairly." Give it a rest.

Then why do you bring it up? It's an AU account that has no bearing on this.

Why do you bring up the EU? If we're discussing non-canonical sources, there is one that has Anakin directly defeating Mace. There is none that shows the vice versa.

The greatest sabreist got owned in his very next fight. The lineal title of "greatest sabreist" thus goes to Obi-Wan.

Who was destroyed by Dooku, twice, and now we're back to square one. See why I said it's laughable to make any concrete claim to hierachy? You're almost caught up.

I don't think George Lucas has ever said "Anakin Skywalker right then and there could defeat Palpatine".

Then you'd be wrong. I honestly can't believe I outgeeked someone who talks about Lightsaber Forms:

In the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas, the creator and ultimate authority regarding the Star Wars universe, responded to the question of whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine," and that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.

If so, why the hell did Obi-Wan beat him and Yoda proclaim that Obi-Wan had no chance against Palpatine?

Because it made for a better script, duh. Don't lose the forest for the trees.

He was a young whipper-snapper v. Maul. His style completely changed by the time of AOTC, which is some 10 years+ later. You will notice that Obi-Wan never at any point does a jumping front flip double kick to anyone, or any of the other ridiculous moves he attempts in TPM.

Already addressed the Form change ridiculousness.

Grievous was pursued because he was running away himself. Running for his life, in fact, from Obi-Wan.

Hmmm...you think that was maybe kinda sorta exactly my point?

His lack of ability to handle Dooku's superior skills was the reason why he was so comically clowned. The style that Dooku presented was something Obi-Wan just couldn't handle.

Concession accepted. You seem incapable of digesting the MMAmath here.

Obi-Wan fought off the supposedly "greatest sabreist" for several minutes, manuevred him into the worst positions possible for him to continue the fight, and then cut off three of his limbs in one fell swoop. I consider that an incredible display of defensive swordsmanship wedded to tactical usage of the terrain. Through such, he annihilated Anakin - utterly ruined him.

Get emotional about it. Two facts:
(1) Obi-Wan is on the run the entire time. We'd never seen that from him.
(2) They exchanged dialogue that explicitly conveyed Anakin's hubris.

These are incontrovertible observations. You've invented in your own mind your rationalizations for Anakin destroying Dooku and thrust them upon us when nothing in the films indicates them to be true. Anyone who wishes to see this objectively can watch the duel for themselves and decide who they think is the stronger duelist up to that critical moment of hubris: