Star Trek: Discovery V3.0 (First Trailer Released)

[HereticBD]

Looks...kinda shit.

Not because of the obvious progressive pandering, but the look of it doesn't exactly scream "Star Trek". From TOS to Enterprise, Star Trek has had a distinct look that was immediately identifiable. This looks like just another sci-fi show, and I can't imagine the die hard trekkies being too thrilled with it. You can get away with big changes in a movie re-imagining, but a series is going to need to appeal to those long time fans, and feed off of the built in fan base to sustain itself.

I'll give it shot, but my expectations are extremely low.

 

[Loiosh]

in terms of story telling...I guess you do.

i love how you wanna try and twist this into sexism because you are a delicate little liberal nancy.

Has nothing to do with sexism. Some sexes are better at certain roles than others.

Just the way it is.

A female COULD pull it off but you'd have an easier time finding a male.

You sound like a high school drop out.

From the swamp.

 

[Loiosh]

Looks...kinda shit.

Not because of the obvious progressive pandering, but the look of it doesn't exactly scream "Star Trek". From TOS to Enterprise, Star Trek has had a distinct look that was immediately identifiable. This looks like just another sci-fi show, and I can't imagine the die hard trekkies being too thrilled with it. You can get away with big changes in a movie re-imagining, but a series is going to need to appeal to those long time fans, and feed off of the built in fan base to sustain itself.

I'll give it shot, but my expectations are extremely low.

I have a group of friends who definitely fit that bill, and no, they're not thrilled.

They're mostly pissed at yet another interpretation of how Klingons look.

They're tepid at best with regards to the show, they're more excited about Orville.

 

[Bob Gray]

Voyager was incredible, and Janeway was off the charts bad-ass, especially in the finale, where she sacrificed herself to destroy the Borg Collective. The last few seasons were about as good as DS9, which is as good as it gets.

It sucked for you because it didn't have starship captains mud wrestling, and it was packed with strong female characters.

By the way, "the captain is the centerpiece" is your private, meaningless rule. The main protagonist is whoever they make it. Star Trek is typically an ensemble show with the focus being on different characters depending on the episode. TOS was almost exclusively focused on Kirk but the show has gotten further and further away from that formula with time.

Look, I get what you like and why you like it. It isn't for me to tell you what I like is better. I loved Voyager and Janeway, and you don't. That's fine.

I just hope whichever way they go with these new shows, they do it well.

Dude....Voyager sucked. It wasnt because of a female captain, it was because the characters were consistently terrible and the writing was largely forgettable at best. Sure, it had some good episodes, but as a series it was bad.

As for the whole female thing, one of the big problems with these situations is they often don't acknowledge that men and women are different. Film and TV often believes that in order to write a strong female character, you must write a strong male character and then give him a vagina. They have to drink, fuck and fight just as well as the 6'4" 230 pound Jack Reacher lookalike.

The problem is, men and women are vastly different and the entertainment industry is often ignoring that in favor of making the characters "equal". Trek might handle this differently, but seeing whats her name facing down a huge alien menace in the space suit sorta points to not really.

Even in a show about time traveling, light speed starships and teleporters, it's still too much disbelief to suspend when a tiny girl goes around kicking everyones ass.





And if you don't believe me, behold:

This sucked and you know it did. And this is one of the best shows on TV that has an incredible amount of talent involved in it. Still, THAT'S what we get. It looks absurd because it is. Even in a show with dragons, zombies and magic.

Meanwhile, Brienne of Tarth is awesome. But they go out of their way to explain and make it apparent what an anomaly she is.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Voyager's quality dips pretty low but it still has some highs

Worth checking out imo

I'm actually watching deadlock right now

 

[Loiosh]

Dude....Voyager sucked. It wasnt because of a female captain, it was because the characters were consistently terrible and the writing was largely forgettable at best. Sure, it had some good episodes, but as a series it was bad.

As for the whole female thing, one of the big problems with these situations is they often don't acknowledge that men and women are different. Film and TV often believes that in order to write a strong female character, you must write a strong male character and then give him a vagina. They have to drink, fuck and fight just as well as the 6'4" 230 pound Jack Reacher lookalike.

The problem is, men and women are vastly different and the entertainment industry is often ignoring that in favor of making the characters "equal". Trek might handle this differently, but seeing whats her name facing down a huge alien menace in the space suit sorta points to not really.

Even in a show about time traveling, light speed starships and teleporters, it's still too much disbelief to suspend when a tiny girl goes around kicking everyones ass.





And if you don't believe me, behold:

This sucked and you know it did. And this is one of the best shows on TV that has an incredible amount of talent involved in it. Still, THAT'S what we get. It looks absurd because it is. Even in a show with dragons, zombies and magic.

Meanwhile, Brienne of Tarth is awesome. But they go out of their way to explain and make it apparent what an anomaly she is.

Complains about women in Star Trek, shows image from Game of Thrones.

Where EVERYONE looks terrible because of terrible choreography.

Did you think Yara looked ridiculous trying to save Theon?

 

[Gigas]

Complains about women in Star Trek, shows image from Game of Thrones.

Where EVERYONE looks terrible because of terrible choreography.

Did you think Yara looked ridiculous trying to save Theon?

Come on 5 foot 110lbs little females taking out Klingons, a fucking joke if you ever seen one.

Choreography is irrelevant.

 

[Loiosh]

Come on 5 foot 110lbs little females taking out Klingons, a fucking joke if you ever seen one.

Choreography is irrelevant.

Virtually every action hero in history does things that are a joke. We forgive men physical impossibilities because they're men.

And that scene failed because of the choreography. The women had weapons and it absolutely could have been convincing.

 

[Philo-Publius]

Dude....Voyager sucked. It wasnt because of a female captain, it was because the characters were consistently terrible and the writing was largely forgettable at best. Sure, it had some good episodes, but as a series it was bad.

While the writing and acting on Star Trek Voyager were often not good, it is also true that some people noticed a political statement with Voyager and were not very fond of it. The writers killed off an almost entirely white male senior crew in the first episode and left a crew with the sole remaining white male being a rehabilitated criminal. This was not an accident, and there were people who tuned out just because they didn't appreciate using a Trek series as a political statement.

 

[Adamant]

How about instead of a fucking prequel "before kirk" shit...we actually have a show take off after the events of the last generation's crew???

And instead of dealing with lense flares and spiralling camera shots we focus in on episodes that deal with the human condition?

Fuck you JJ Abrams...

I could have swore we've already done the whole "before Kirk" stuff. I didn't dig it. And now this trash that is trying to copy the JJ-verse. Fuck.

 

[Bob Gray]

While the writing and acting on Star Trek Voyager were often not good, it is also true that some people noticed a political statement with Voyager and were not very fond of it. The writers killed off an almost entirely white male senior crew in the first episode and left a crew with the sole remaining white male being a rehabilitated criminal. This was not an accident, and there were people who tuned out just because they didn't appreciate using a Trek series as a political statement.

But that would have been fine if the remaining characters were done well. Since they werent, it sucked.

 

[Bob Gray]

Complains about women in Star Trek, shows image from Game of Thrones.

Where EVERYONE looks terrible because of terrible choreography.

Did you think Yara looked ridiculous trying to save Theon?

If you think Im complaining about women in star trek, or Game of Thrones by that matter, you didn't understand my point. Which is strange, considering you tend to be one of the better posters around here.

Virtually every action hero in history does things that are a joke. We forgive men physical impossibilities because they're men.

And that scene failed because of the choreography. The women had weapons and it absolutely could have been convincing.

The fact that people do things that are impossible doesn't mean that you can accept anything that is impossible. If a character decided to flap their arms hard enough and they fly, you don't excuse the ridiculousness of that with something else that's less ridiculous.

Are Bruce McClains exploits in Die Hard impossible? Probably. Does that mean you could accept it if they had casted Demi Moore instead? Let's be real here. That would have been awful. Exact same movie, exact same script bit flip the gender and youve gone from having an all time classic to having a terrible bomb of a movie.

 

[Loiosh]

If you think Im complaining about women in star trek, or Game of Thrones by that matter, you didn't understand my point. Which is strange, considering you tend to be one of the better posters around here.

OK then, make your point. All I know is you were talking about women and posted a gif where everyone looked terrible. Seriously, what exactly was your point?

The fact that people do things that are impossible doesn't mean that you can accept anything that is impossible. If a character decided to flap their arms hard enough and they fly, you don't excuse the ridiculousness of that with something else that's less ridiculous.

Are Bruce McClains exploits in Die Hard impossible? Probably. Does that mean you could accept it if they had casted Demi Moore instead? Let's be real here. That would have been awful. Exact same movie, exact same script bit flip the gender and youve gone from having an all time classic to having a terrible bomb of a movie..

I don't buy any of that, sorry. I've seen plenty of films where a female character was completely believable doing fantastical action, or at least as believable as a man would have been. I could (and have) seen a woman in John McLean type roles. Maybe if women (in general) cared at all about action films they would be more popular.

 

[Bob Gray]

OK then, make your point. All I know is you were talking about women and posted a gif where everyone looked terrible. Seriously, what exactly was your point?

I did. Pretending men and women are equals in all things is bad writing. Nowadays they often make a strong female character by just writing a stereotypically strong male character and then flipping the gender.

I don't buy any of that, sorry. I've seen plenty of films where a female character was completely believable doing fantastical action, or at least as believable as a man would have been. I could (and have) seen a woman in John McLean type roles. Maybe if women (in general) cared at all about action films they would be more popular.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. However, it rarely works and is often terrible. Saying its possible for women can do fantastical action scenes is side stepping my point. I'm saying Die Hard would have been terrible with a female in the McLaine role. How many good movies can you name with a female in a McLaine type role?

 

[Loiosh]

I did. Pretending men and women are equals in all things is bad writing. Nowadays they often make a strong female character by just writing a stereotypically strong male character and then flipping the gender.






I'm not saying it doesn't happen. However, it rarely works and is often terrible. Saying its possible for women can do fantastical action scenes is side stepping my point. I'm saying Die Hard would have been terrible with a female in the McLaine role. How many good movies can you name with a female in a McLaine type role?

I disagree on all points but it isn't worth getting into. I'm not going to change your and you aren't going to change mine, and that's fine, because it's entertainment, and there are no rules for what you enjoy.

Just out of curiosity, how many men do you feel have been good in John McLean roles? I can name Bruce Willis, and think it ends there. You picked one of the most iconic action heroes of all time, in an incredibly specific role. I'm curious to see what men you feel played that type of character well.

 

[Bob Gray]

I disagree on all points but it isn't worth getting into. I'm not going to change your and you aren't going to change mine, and that's fine, because it's entertainment, and there are no rules for what you enjoy.

Just out of curiosity, how many men do you feel have been good in John McLean roles? I can name Bruce Willis, and think it ends there. You picked one of the most iconic action heroes of all time, in an incredibly specific role. I'm curious to see what men you feel played that type of character well.

Well, if you can only name Bruce Willis, why say you've seen multiple females in the same type of role? I don't think you'd say you've seen more females do that kind of role, would you? Or at least do it well.

The 80's were like the action hero era, so I'd have to know what you're referring to specifically. The every man hero? The more "grounded" action star?

I did pick a classic and for a specific reason. There is no woman they could have ever casted with that script and had the same success. I do think they could have casted another male in the lead and it still could have been a huge success. It's one of the best action scripts of all time, the direction is second to none and you have one of the all time great villains. It's a classic for many reasons besides Willis' casting, but a female in the role would have been a mistake that overshadowed all of these things.

 

[Loiosh]

Well, if you can only name Bruce Willis, why say you've seen multiple females in the same type of role? I don't think you'd say you've seen more females do that kind of role, would you? Or at least do it well.

The 80's were like the action hero era, so I'd have to know what you're referring to specifically. The every man hero? The more "grounded" action star?

I did pick a classic and for a specific reason. There is no woman they could have ever casted with that script and had the same success. I do think they could have casted another male in the lead and it still could have been a huge success. It's one of the best action scripts of all time, the direction is second to none and you have one of the all time great villains. It's a classic for many reasons besides Willis' casting, but a female in the role would have been a mistake that overshadowed all of these things.

I was afraid we weren't on the same wavelength and didn't want to provide a bunch of names only to have you say "oh that wasn't what I was thinking." I can't help but notice you didn't provide a single name yourself, asking for further clarification on your own criteria.

I'm going to hold my male list at one, leave it at Bruce Willis. He was perfect for the role. I don't think anyone else would have had the same incredible success in Die Hard.

As for women knocking it out of the park in action roles (if that's what I'm supposed to provide), I'm going to lead with The Bride from Kill Bill. Sigourney Weaver was a definitively female bad ass who didn't have to pretend to be a guy. How about Linda Hamilton in T2? Did anyone question the the things she was doing?

There are many more but those are the cream of the crop.

 

[Bob Gray]

I was afraid we weren't on the same wavelength and didn't want to provide a bunch of names only to have you say "oh that wasn't what I was thinking." I can't help but notice you didn't provide a single name yourself, asking for further clarification on your own criteria.

I'm going to hold my male list at one, leave it at Bruce Willis. He was perfect for the role. I don't think anyone else would have had the same incredible success in Die Hard.

As for women knocking it out of the park in action roles (if that's what I'm supposed to provide), I'm going to lead with The Bride from Kill Bill. Sigourney Weaver was a definitively female bad ass who didn't have to pretend to be a guy. How about Linda Hamilton in T2? Did anyone question the the things she was doing?

There are many more but those are the cream of the crop.

"My" criteria? "McClane type" was brought up by you, not me. I said a female as McClane would have been terrible. I asked for the female roles you saw that were McClane types and you didn't give any examples until now.

I also think Willis was perfect for the role, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have had a great movie without him. It may not have been perfect, but it would have worked. Again, there is no female in the history of cinema that they could have casted and it would have worked. Not without some pretty hefty re-writing.

Those are all great female action roles, I agree. But my point was never that a female couldnt be good in an action role. I'm not saying that there can't be good action movies, scenes or fights with women. But they can't have the same kind of fight scenes. Even Sara Conor isn't going to win that fistfight with Karl.

Someone like Kurt Russel could have made a great McClane. Would he have been Bruce Willis good? Hard to compare to perfection. But Jack Burton is a somewhat similar character. Indiana Jones is another somewhat comparable character, and also a classic one. A female in any one of these 3 roles would have been a colossal misfire. But Russel and Ford would have both made good McClanes, even if they werent as good as Willis. Also, Willis would have made a good Burton or Jones, even if he wasn't as good as his counterparts. In contrast, Sarah Hamilton as Joanna McClane, Jackie Burton or Alaska Jones wouldn't have worked. Although, perhaps Jackie Burton could have worked out somehow, since he's essentially the fool. But I dunno about Hamilton. I'll have to think about that one. But if they did that today theyd probably cast Melissa McCarthy and that would be shit.

I love me some Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I thought Rei was a great character in Force Awakens. I have my fingers crossed about Wonder Woman. I have no problem with women in action scenes, but I'm not going to pretend they aren't women. Unless you give them super powers.

 

[JDragon]

"My" criteria? "McClane type" was brought up by you, not me. I said a female as McClane would have been terrible. I asked for the female roles you saw that were McClane types and you didn't give any examples until now.

I also think Willis was perfect for the role, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have had a great movie without him. It may not have been perfect, but it would have worked. Again, there is no female in the history of cinema that they could have casted and it would have worked. Not without some pretty hefty re-writing.

Those are all great female action roles, I agree. But my point was never that a female couldnt be good in an action role. I'm not saying that there can't be good action movies, scenes or fights with women. But they can't have the same kind of fight scenes. Even Sara Conor isn't going to win that fistfight with Karl.

Someone like Kurt Russel could have made a great McClane. Would he have been Bruce Willis good? Hard to compare to perfection. But Jack Burton is a somewhat similar character. Indiana Jones is another somewhat comparable character, and also a classic one. A female in any one of these 3 roles would have been a colossal misfire. But Russel and Ford would have both made good McClanes, even if they werent as good as Willis. Also, Willis would have made a good Burton or Jones, even if he wasn't as good as his counterparts. In contrast, Sarah Hamilton as Joanna McClane, Jackie Burton or Alaska Jones wouldn't have worked. Although, perhaps Jackie Burton could have worked out somehow, since he's essentially the fool. But I dunno about Hamilton. I'll have to think about that one. But if they did that today theyd probably cast Melissa McCarthy and that would be shit.

I love me some Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I thought Rei was a great character in Force Awakens. I have my fingers crossed about Wonder Woman. I have no problem with women in action scenes, but I'm not going to pretend they aren't women. Unless you give them super powers.

I think the issue here is that we don't even know what the female roles in Discovery will actually look like.

Strong female roles? No problem there IMO. Buffy is a prime example, btw. Remember the final season when she commanded the whole gang of slayers? That's not dissimilar to the role of a captain.

I get your general gut feeling regarding SJWness in series and movies. But if the story makes sense, what's the issue?

 

[Loiosh]

"My" criteria? "McClane type" was brought up by you, not me. I said a female as McClane would have been terrible. I asked for the female roles you saw that were McClane types and you didn't give any examples until now.

I also think Willis was perfect for the role, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have had a great movie without him. It may not have been perfect, but it would have worked. Again, there is no female in the history of cinema that they could have casted and it would have worked. Not without some pretty hefty re-writing.

Those are all great female action roles, I agree. But my point was never that a female couldnt be good in an action role. I'm not saying that there can't be good action movies, scenes or fights with women. But they can't have the same kind of fight scenes. Even Sara Conor isn't going to win that fistfight with Karl.

Someone like Kurt Russel could have made a great McClane. Would he have been Bruce Willis good? Hard to compare to perfection. But Jack Burton is a somewhat similar character. Indiana Jones is another somewhat comparable character, and also a classic one. A female in any one of these 3 roles would have been a colossal misfire. But Russel and Ford would have both made good McClanes, even if they werent as good as Willis. Also, Willis would have made a good Burton or Jones, even if he wasn't as good as his counterparts. In contrast, Sarah Hamilton as Joanna McClane, Jackie Burton or Alaska Jones wouldn't have worked. Although, perhaps Jackie Burton could have worked out somehow, since he's essentially the fool. But I dunno about Hamilton. I'll have to think about that one. But if they did that today theyd probably cast Melissa McCarthy and that would be shit.

I love me some Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I thought Rei was a great character in Force Awakens. I have my fingers crossed about Wonder Woman. I have no problem with women in action scenes, but I'm not going to pretend they aren't women. Unless you give them super powers.

I still have no earthly idea why you aimed any of this at me.

Or why you posted that terrible gif.