So u honestly think and with all respect to Fedor’s accomplishments and long reign

[LilNicky95]

Derrick Lewis would definitely KO fedor

Just like he did to 45 year old Hunt?

 

[2004 account]

Another self exposing noob thread by ts casual fan ? LOL OK

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Do u honestly think him or CC or Big Nog can stay standing against a monster like Francis Ngannou who cuts weight just to qualify and also imagine Francis has all the freedom to use any PEDS he wants in the Pride era?
Here is Fedor having trouble with a middle weight
while in her s prime

So just picture Francis around 300 pounds of pure brute power and 2 bombs ready to explode in your face, u really think Fedor would endure such an event?

They'd do as well against him on the feet as he'd do against them on the ground. The question is how good are their takedowns compared to his takedown defense.

Though ultimately, without a time machine its impossible to know, so any answer is correct. For instance, someone could say some 15 pound two year old could crawl into the cage and beat all three of them at the same time by some imaginary sequence of moves, and it's impossible to prove they're wrong, since the fight is (without a time machine) 100% imaginary to begin with. Imaginary means anything anyone can imagine is allowed.

That's what's fun about these kinds of threads, and why people do them. Real fights (ie fights that actually happened) are more restrictive, because you can't make everything up. People get tired of that (how many times can you argue about what say Big Nog's or Ngannou's record is, given that anyone can just look it up and give the correct answer), so most threads are about imaginary situations -- much easier to be creative.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

Fedor would put Francis on his back and beat the piss out of him. We saw Stipe do it for 25 minutes.

Ngannou is overrated as hell

He looked good against Stipe, but imo Stipe has declined a lot since their first fight. I think it was more of a case of Stipe getting worse than Ngannou getting better.

 

[true_fan]

Another self exposing noob thread by ts casual fan ? LOL OK

If Fujita who is a wrestler rang Fedor’s bells, imagine Francis at 300 pounds steroids freak child

 

[1BadMF]

Not hating on Ngannou, I like him but I think prime Fedor would beat him. I don't think
Big Nog would have though.

 

[ezekielthree]

Derrick Lewis would definitely KO fedor

Just like Brett Rogers did?

 

[Daelh]

Nobody is pretending it didn't happen. What is clear though is that ngannou learned from thtat defeat - miocic didn't hurt him as much he hurt him even in defeat - and fixed his weaknesses and this time miocic ended up being taken down by ngannou and given a beating.

I agree Ngannou looked much improved in the rematch, but Miocic didnt do much to be honest. There where almost no engagement until the takedown sequence where Ngannou stuffed it then took him down in return and got some ground and pound in, so Ngannou looked much improved but Stipe also looked like shit. In this thread we're comparing Ngannou to prime Fedor and prime Fedor would get in close, trip Ngannou to the ground and beat him up. Stuffing a lazy takedown attempt from Stipe is not the same as stuffing a Judo throw from a legit Judo practitioner. Ngannou would probably overpower Fedor if they stayed in the clinch for an extended amount of time, but im pretty sure Fedor would be able to throw Ngannou to the ground easily and then Ngannou would do shit against Fedors GnP or BJJ. Ngannou could ofcourse catch Fedor coming in, but if he misses, he's done.

 

[bjpenngoat]

The way Fedor ragdolled nog in their first fight would.be exactly how it plays out. Fast power sambo casting punches up top then lightning fast takedown. Francis would be dead. I give him zero chance against prime Fedor.

 

[eddi]

Do u honestly think him or CC or Big Nog can stay standing against a monster like Francis Ngannou who cuts weight just to qualify and also imagine Francis has all the freedom to use any PEDS he wants in the Pride era?
Here is Fedor having trouble with a middle weight
while in her s prime

So just picture Francis around 300 pounds of pure brute power and 2 bombs ready to explode in your face, u really think Fedor would endure such an event?

yep, he'd make easy work of ngannou, in fact ngannou would not even be pride top 5, randleman would roid rage supplex him then drill his head into the canvas

 

[sapporo ichiban]

It is pointless to compare current fighter wth past fighters - like saying legendary football teams of old would beat the current champions. Different context, different nutrition, different training, different martial expectations and standards, different people involved. Just because emelianko beat cro cop doesn't mean he would have beaten miocic. Martial math only works in fans' imagination...

Fair point. So we could look at it in a couple ways. People like Fedor and GSP may have had the success they did because they had options. They were both very well rounded for their time, the average mma fighter had large experience generally in one aspect and was behind in others. So your response frames that point very well. At this stage, in a more even playing field, the results may be different.

The other side to that is that these men were both genetically gifted with solid IQ's as I suspect crocop and Nog were as well. With that said, if they were all exposed to the methods of today in order to give equal opportunity to all, I suggest that they may have still rose to the top. I think this invites a multi varied analysis which could include life long martial artists and sportsmen vs naturally talented people quickly prepared by schools with refined methods. It turns into a far more complex and interesting conversation if everyone taking part cares to be honest.

At the end of the day, I still think people should respect the roots of the sport and the people who left it in the ring every single time.

 

[Oceanmachine]

Do u honestly think him or CC or Big Nog can stay standing against a monster like Francis Ngannou who cuts weight just to qualify and also imagine Francis has all the freedom to use any PEDS he wants in the Pride era?
Here is Fedor having trouble with a middle weight
while in her s prime

So just picture Francis around 300 pounds of pure brute power and 2 bombs ready to explode in your face, u really think Fedor would endure such an event?

Fedor huggers live in an alternate reality. I like Fedor but he would struggle and likely lose against Ngannou and many of these monsters. Though I would favor Fedor over Cormier, Cain and Brock. Fedor is the same size roughly as Cormier, Cain is chinny and a lesser striker than Fedor, and Brock has terrible striking and hates pain or being hit so Fedor has more ways to win with them

 

[sapporo ichiban]

Say I am wrong... Typical dumb blind nutthugger... Can not come with fact... So Cro Cop and Nog both dominated the UFC HW division right...?

It is pretty easy to see the rise and decline of every fighter through their career as an intelligent fan.

I am going to assume that you are not stupid and that you just wish to push the ufc is the best ever narrative. To say those guys were garbage is just simply not true.

I think we can agree that Crocop, Fedor and Nog had certain things that set them apart. Can you point out any tells that showed when they began to decline?

 

[BFoe]

Good on you that you predicted the result. Hope you won some money on it!

It also seems that you and I agree on what we observed during their second fight and we only disagree on the interpretation or assessment of degree of improvement.

I think the fact that he fights smarter since that first fight is in itself a big improvement. But the biggest sea change is the wrestling addition- previously he didn't har a wrestling game at all past stuffing takedowns. The first niocic fight showed that once muocic took him down he didn't know what to do very much. Its completely diff now as he proved when he beat milcic at his own game. So that alone is a huge difference now as he is now not lost if u can take him down ut he is a threat himself there.

On miocic I don't think he deteriorated appreciably that much between us first fight and second fight against ngannou, not to the degree it had any difference on the result. He never could math nganmou for power or strength anyway in his first fight. He didn't hurt ngannou at all in the first fight either despite hiting him a lot more. The timing and countering ability was still there for miocic.

The only difference was the two things that enabled him to win and dominate for the first match were nullified by ngannou's preparation- firstly by eliminating the head hunting haymakers that nullified a lot of miocic's slipping and pivoting out of the danger zone. The far more deliberate and patient approach meant that he didn't bull rush miocic and make it easy for him to evade his strikes.

The second was The addition of a new wrestling g game tht took away the one offensive threat miocic had over ngannou and that helped him dominate the first fight.miocic wouldn't even take ngannou down now and not only that he was reversed and then ground and pounded for a short period- this for a wrestler who held his own against cormier wrestling wise.

Hence to me these are leaps and bounds improvements that make ngannou a much more dangerous fighter than he already was.

I think there’s overlap where we agree, yes. But there are definite points of disagreement. Stipe most certainly declined appreciably between the first and second fights. It’s not surprising, as he was 35 in the first fight and 38 in the second.
Here’s a takedown from the first fight:

Notice how Stipe times him, ducks under the uppercut, commits fully to a (pretty good for a HW) blast double, gets control of Francis’s hips, and quickly takes him down.
Here’s a look at Stipe’s TD attempt in the 2nd fight:

It’s a very non-committal single leg, which is tougher to finish—not a double. Where is Stipe’s head when he does this? It’s on the outside of Francis’s left leg, where it should not be. It’s not impossible to finish a single leg that way, but it’s tough. Stipe’s neck is right there for Francis to threaten with a guillotine, or to use the neck to control Stipe and defend the TD, which is exactly what happened. And good on Francis for doing that. It’s a competent defense. But a whole lot of people could defend that, it’s not evidence of some great improvement. The TD failed because Stipe had lost explosiveness, did not commit to it, and used poor technique.
I agree that Stipe may have had a tougher time timing Francis due to Francis being more patient—but I don’t think we can say that had a significant effect. That’s not apparent from the fight, which ended early in rd 2. Time will tell how significantly Francis has improved. He’s fortunate that he’s fighting in one of the most shallow HW divisions we’ve seen in years, as he’s very one-dimensional and his overall MMA game is weak. Terrifying power though.

I think it's a case of both. Dude was traumatized by his loss to Stipe. I bet he worked on his grappling like he hadn't before. I bet he improved a lot. But Stipe also has gotten a lot of wear and tear and Ngannou barely even fights a round most of the time.

I agree that it was both. I’d say what we saw in that fight was 65-70% due to Stipe’s decline, and 30-35% due to Ngannou making some adjustments and some legitimate improvements. That’s just a guess obviously, but that’s how I saw the fight. Stipe’s decline was more of a deciding factor imho.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Fedor would put Francis on his back and beat the piss out of him. We saw Stipe do it for 25 minutes.

I rarely disagree with you if ever lol But I think Francis would be a very tough fight for prime Fedor. It would be 50/50 at best. Francis is a different monster now than when he fought Stipe 3 years ago or so.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

Do u honestly think him or CC or Big Nog can stay standing against a monster like Francis Ngannou who cuts weight just to qualify and also imagine Francis has all the freedom to use any PEDS he wants in the Pride era?
Here is Fedor having trouble with a middle weight
while in her s prime

So just picture Francis around 300 pounds of pure brute power and 2 bombs ready to explode in your face, u really think Fedor would endure such an event?

HW division that francis is ruling over is horrible... just plain horrible.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Fedor fan here but I think he loses.

Fedor's best chance was when he was young, his reaction time was fastest, lighter, and hadn't taken a ton of damage. Still an incredibly long shot.

DC easily beats Fedor btw.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

Isn’t this the dude a MW DanHenderson sent you the shadow realm via a first class ticket?

 

[Sanserif]

I think there’s overlap where we agree, yes. But there are definite points of disagreement. Stipe most certainly declined appreciably between the first and second fights. It’s not surprising, as he was 35 in the first fight and 38 in the second.
Here’s a takedown from the first fight:

Notice how Stipe times him, ducks under the uppercut, commits fully to a (pretty good for a HW) blast double, gets control of Francis’s hips, and quickly takes him down.
Here’s a look at Stipe’s TD attempt in the 2nd fight:

It’s a very non-committal single leg, which is tougher to finish—not a double. Where is Stipe’s head when he does this? It’s on the outside of Francis’s left leg, where it should not be. It’s not impossible to finish a single leg that way, but it’s tough. Stipe’s neck is right there for Francis to threaten with a guillotine, or to use the neck to control Stipe and defend the TD, which is exactly what happened. And good on Francis for doing that. It’s a competent defense. But a whole lot of people could defend that, it’s not evidence of some great improvement. The TD failed because Stipe had lost explosiveness, did not commit to it, and used poor technique.
I agree that Stipe may have had a tougher time timing Francis due to Francis being more patient—but I don’t think we can say that had a significant effect. That’s not apparent from the fight, which ended early in rd 2. Time will tell how significantly Francis has improved. He’s fortunate that he’s fighting in one of the most shallow HW divisions we’ve seen in years, as he’s very one-dimensional and his overall MMA game is weak. Terrifying power though.

I agree that it was both. I’d say what we saw in that fight was 65-70% due to Stipe’s decline, and 30-35% due to Ngannou making some adjustments and some legitimate improvements. That’s just a guess obviously, but that’s how I saw the fight. Stipe’s decline was more of a deciding factor imho.

Obviously we are all outsiders trying to peer through the curtain so to speak so the only people who know rhe full truth may be miocic , ngannou and their trainers. Still despite differing interpretations a good discussion will always leave al participants and observers more enlightened about those and other aspects and is well worth the time, as this is.

Those particular sequences you highlighted in those clips were differentiated to me not so much by miocic but by ngannou. Miocic was able to easily time ngannou in the first clip precisely because ngannou tried to take his head off with a full power punch - see how ngannou foolishly throws his committed punches in a completely telegraphed fashion enabling mjocic to easily anticipate it and o for a takedown and get both legs. However for the second clip from the second fight ngannou was a lot more patient & gave an uncommitted strike and whih didn't give niocic as much time to gofer the takedown. As he dived ngannou was able to withdraw his punch and get the underhooks and position himself to stuff the takedown. Rather than miocic being non committal, it was because of ngannou's much improved approach which caused ngannou to hae better succes to stuff the takedown attempt and why miocic only got one leg and was wrogly positioned.

 

[Sanserif]

I agree Ngannou looked much improved in the rematch, but Miocic didnt do much to be honest. There where almost no engagement until the takedown sequence where Ngannou stuffed it then took him down in return and got some ground and pound in, so Ngannou looked much improved but Stipe also looked like shit. In this thread we're comparing Ngannou to prime Fedor and prime Fedor would get in close, trip Ngannou to the ground and beat him up. Stuffing a lazy takedown attempt from Stipe is not the same as stuffing a Judo throw from a legit Judo practitioner. Ngannou would probably overpower Fedor if they stayed in the clinch for an extended amount of time, but im pretty sure Fedor would be able to throw Ngannou to the ground easily and then Ngannou would do shit against Fedors GnP or BJJ. Ngannou could ofcourse catch Fedor coming in, but if he misses, he's done.

The problem is we really have no idea how emelianko would do against the heavyweights today who are much more rounded in overall skills as a whole and have in particular higher levels of wrestling training as a whole. Training standards have risen a lot over that time and what was the status quo then is no longer the case.

Nostalgia usually paints the good old day a shelf better - knockouts become more dramatic and reputations become burnished with time ... Best to leave the champions of the past in the past where they belong...