So I'm reading the Wikileaks book, and it's infuriating.

[dissolved]

I just ordered the book.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

#Notanargument

I think you're a good poster and oftentimes agree (and even gave a like to your initial post that's in dispute). You honestly don't think that you could have phrased that better?

 

[Blackened]

I think you're a good poster and oftentimes agree (and even gave a like to your initial post that's in dispute). You honestly don't think that you could have phrased that better?

He isn't disputing my argument at all (which was about rightful ownership of land, and how civilizations rise and fall) and isn't presenting one of his own.

You should be asking him if he wanted to stick to the rules of logic and form a rebuttal rather than using misdirection.

 

[Brazilian HKD]

Muslims ARE worshippers of a pedophile war lord AND America IS horrible when it comes to foreign policy interests. How does this make you feel, OP? I don't excuse destabilizing a country just because I think the inhabitants are filth.

But anyways, this is what happens when you are the world power. You shape things according to your interests. All major powers do this. Again, it is not right, but hardly unique to America. Russia would probably take our place (They're already doing it in Syria) if we don't intervene. The only reason I like them more for the ME is because they're more effective (See: brutal) so in a way it is comforting that America is the world power where we at least pretend to care about things like Human Rights and Democracy

Exactly, Europe has no high horse to speak from, and the British/Canadian/ Australian smugness when criticizing the US, although sometimes spot on, still comes from nations that did similar things (extermination of local populations) , sometimes worse ( England) or would easily do just as the US did if they were in power.

PS it's even bizarre when Saudis accuse americans of being racist...

PS2 Yeah Obama was a warmonger with a smile.

 

[dissolved]

I'll say something that is hard to understand . . . As a stable member of my family, I was drawn into being a watch-dog/policeman/affairs-straightener. This role that I never wanted but got dragged into for various reason, started probably 15 years ago. On retrospect it was probably never my place to be involved. On the other hand, it was nearly impossible not to respond to pressure and get involved, so I would have likely done all of the same things over again if I had the chance to. Since my oversight/involvement at the request of others, I have not stopped receiving vitriolic response, threats, hate, disrespect, further crushing-responsibility, requests for financial support etc. In fact, various moral lines were touched and even crossed at times - just because. I'd have invited anyone else to have assumed the role that I did, but no one in my large family was willing or capable. A hell of a mess is what has transpired over said period and I wish I could have it all over. My brother in fact quoted to me several times, "no good deed goes unpunished." Thank God for a few family members support.

I honestly see pertinence in my experience (on a small scale) to the US' involvement in world affairs such as it has been in the last hundred or so years. Once the arm of foreign affairs as the world super-power was extended, the going-back was practically impossible.

The rewriting of history - laced with America hate - that is ongoing is another matter too. Very few from the hate camp understand let alone want-to-understand the historical reality of America's rise to it's global power status. They don't want to truthfully know the roots of conflicts or the ideology behind them. Yes, most certainly yes, religious ideology WILL blind true, fair inspection of the history and decisions made, let alone the snowballing/growth of policies and practices.

Again, I just ordered the book and look forward to reading it. Like anything, I will undertake that reading with a critical mind.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

He isn't disputing my argument at all (which was about rightful ownership of land, and how civilizations rise and fall) and isn't presenting one of his own.

You should be asking him if he wanted to stick to the rules of logic rather than using misdirection.

What I read was him confronting you on your word choice, due to it being indicative of the US having authority to decide who lives where throughout the world. Is that not correct? If it is, I agree with him and I find it a bit conceited. Not you. Just the notion that we would "give" them a safe space in places they already live.

 

[Islam Imamate]

We were going off of theoretical framework. The law of the land belonged to the Hindus before being conquered.

How many times do I have to tell you the Middle East wasn't inhabited by Hindus? It was ruled by Byzantium(Orthodox Christians) and Sassanian Persians(Zoroastrians) and inhabited by different Christian sects like the Syriac and Coptic Christians as well as Jews.

Many of those inhabitants preferred the Muslim overlords because the previous two empires were assholes. Sort of like how certain Native tribes worked with the Spanish conquistadors because the Aztecs were such titanic dicks.

You are welcome to think, though I don't see how it relates.

My point is these challenges to claims on land that have been well established are pointless. People have a right to self determination on the land they inhabit, the US is the one that stated and even demanded this which brought the end of colonization. @Anung Un Rama was right to point out the implicitly condescending nature of your post. The land of the Middle East is not the US' to give.

The flip side of this is that I don't believe that the US should intervene willy nilly, even if Muslims are begging us to as some are in the case of Syria.

 

[m25105]

That is why I really respect @Anung Un Rama for being consistent and being aware that Obama is a piece of shit war mongerer to.

Real liberals realize that Obama or Bush it doesn't matter. We are imperialistic and as Lenin said imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism (if you are marxist leaning it is). So yes true liberals and anti establishment types won't go the route that CNN does which was to cover up Obama and Hillary's crimes against humanity but to obsess over what Bush or Reagan did. It is all the same.

Obama has destroyed many nations while he feeds the military industrial complex and has maimed and scared and ruined the lives of thousands and tens of thousands through his drone strikes. Little kids have their arms blown off or watch their parents explode into hundreds of pieces. And Hillary wanted to continue this sick imperialistic game with her wanting to fuck around even more in Syria and Ukraine and Libya etc.

What real liberals should stand for is revolution and liberation away from this sick system. Say no to corporate news and become an independent thinker.

Man, I don't know what to think of you. Sometimes you post stuff I agree with, other times..

Any way, my first like for a post of yours.

 

[Blackened]

What I read was him confronting you on your word choice, due to it being indicative of the US having authority to decide who lives where throughout the world. Is that not correct? If it is, I agree with him and I find it a bit conceited. Not you. Just the notion that we would "give" them a safe space in places they already live.

My argument was, like they "gave" it to the Hindus?

What are the rules for ownership of a land? Dominance and force are the only natural rules, and it's how the Muslims took it from the Hindi, right?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Man, I don't know what to think of you. Sometimes you post stuff I agree with, other times..

Any way, my first like for a post of yours.

@SouthoftheAndes is a pretty weird dude. I appreciate his odd perspective even if I disagree with him often. At least I disagree with him in a unique way as opposed to him just parroting lines from this rag or that other one.

 

[Blackened]

How many times do I have to tell you the Middle East wasn't inhabited by Hindus? It was ruled by Byzantium(Orthodox Christians) and Sassanian Persians(Zoroastrians) and inhabited by different Christian sects like the Syriac and Coptic Christians as well as Jews.

Many of those inhabitants preferred the Muslim overlords because the previous two empires were assholes. Sort of like how certain Native tribes worked with the Spanish conquistadors because the Aztecs were such titanic dicks.

My point is these challenges to claims on land that have been well established are pointless. People have a right to self determination on the land they inhabit, the US is the one that stated and even demanded this which brought the end of colonization. @Anung Un Rama was right to point out the implicitly condescending nature of your post. The land of the Middle East si not the US' to give.

The flip side of this is that I don't believe that the US should intervene willy nilly, even if Muslims are begging us to as some are in the case of Syria.

OK, fine. There were there, but they were one of many. Sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

But ok, lets grant that. So Islam wasn't largely spread by conquest? That's the point I'm getting at.

What makes someone "owner" of the land? The argument isn't going anywhere until we get some definition up in this bitch.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

@SouthoftheAndes is a pretty weird dude. I appreciate his odd perspective even if I disagree with him often. At least I disagree with him in a unique way as opposed to him just parroting lines from this rag or that other one.

I am very unique but am not that far off from the truth. In time you will all see. One world if you will lol

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

My argument was, like they "gave" it to the Hindus?

What are the rules for ownership of a land? Dominance and force are the only natural rules, and it's how the Muslims took it from the Hindi, right?

I don't know the history. I do know this sounds funny.

I've long said give the Muslims an area in the M.E. and stop intervening in their affairs.

They're already in the ME and in control.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

Man, I don't know what to think of you. Sometimes you post stuff I agree with, other times..

Any way, my first like for a post of yours.

It is simple I support foreign military intervention when I feel it is needed. I am pro drone strike but think it can be rolled back. With that said I acknowledge that my stances are pro war and imperialistic I just don't care and deem it necessary for the time being.

And furthermore, even though I disagree with Anung on many things. I at least really admire and respect the fact that he thinks for himself and didn't go along with the corporate news like CNN and the Hillary worship. I will always have respect for those who think outside the box and don't follow and parrot typical garbage spewed by Fox news or CNN. Blind political partisanship is the enemy to a truly functioning and thinking democracy.

 

[dissolved]

And you used that position to justify your original post that we should carve out a piece of the ME for the people who have called it home for 1000 years....

Breaking: World War II was 80 years ago.

We don't now, nor have we ever, owned the world. The ME is not something for us to give to Muslims.

I'm not sure what you are seeing?

You don't think the complete shut-down on other religions in the ME isn't a reality? That over 99% of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia or Muslims already, Iran is over %98 and Pakistan is at 97% doesn't represent this?

 

[m25105]

It is simple I support foreign military intervention when I feel it is needed. I am pro drone strike but think it can be rolled back. With that said I acknowledge that my stances are pro war and imperialistic I just don't care and deem it necessary for the time being.

And furthermore, even though I disagree with Anung on many things. I at least really admire and respect the fact that he thinks for himself and didn't go along with the corporate news like CNN and the Hillary worship. I will always have respect for those who think outside the box and don't follow and parrot typical garbage spewed by Fox news or CNN. Blind political partisanship is the enemy to a truly functioning and thinking democracy.

Again : / don't really agree, and then agree. You're a mixed bag dude. Ah well, good explanation.

 

[cabal]

Don't see why America doing bad things justifies a barbarian religion that worships a pedo.

But yes, all the more reason not to trust the CIA and secret organizations in general. And all the more reason to stop policing the world.

Well the invasion of Europe and west is staged by the same system of power that trashed those countries.

 

[Blackened]

I don't know the history. I do know this sounds funny.



They're already in the ME and in control.

Forget it then, just look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

If they gained most of their territory by up and taking it, why couldn't we do the same? If their rightful claim is due to their use of force, why couldn't we rightfully claim it by use of force?

 

[Hans Gercmiov]

The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.

 

[dissolved]

Muslims ARE worshippers of a pedophile war lord AND America IS horrible when it comes to foreign policy interests. How does this make you feel, OP? I don't excuse destabilizing a country just because I think the inhabitants are filth.

But anyways, this is what happens when you are the world power. You shape things according to your interests. All major powers do this. Again, it is not right, but hardly unique to America. Russia would probably take our place (They're already doing it in Syria) if we don't intervene. The only reason I like them more for the ME is because they're more effective (See: brutal) so in a way it is comforting that America is the world power where we at least pretend to care about things like Human Rights and Democracy

This actually probably the best post in the thread.