Side Cage clinching should not be scored until something significant happens

[pankrat]

I think it’s because I did it in a PM

Thats even worse imo. In public I get you must keep it clean but in PM you can just ignore the guy.

 

[tmtmma2020]

Thats even worse imo. In public I get you must keep it clean but in PM you can just ignore the guy.

Yeah it is what it is , but honestly it’s better to just play nice and not seek out arguments . I learned my lesson

 

[The Schmoop]

How many fighter you see backed on the cage reverse the position, that option wasn't available to Jorge?

Stand up, pumble out or take the L. The objective is to nullify your opponent and impose your game. Getting taken down or fence pressed is losing. End of story.

 

[letgodiego]

blame masvidal for being controlled

 

[TomTomNT]

blame masvidal for being controlled

There are fighters so physically gifted that no person could easily escape being pressed up against the cage....Some fighters are naturally stronger and it has nothing to do with "skill", it takes time to escape a clinch where the initiating fighter literally refuses to do anything offensive because the moment he would try, he would then lose the clinch, this is called "stalling".....and it takes time to escape that stalling, which usually takes up the majority of the round.....

You have to start asking the question of "how much is that worth on the score cards, clinching against the cage with no takedowns,subs, or significant strikes(toe taps and shoulder bumps are not significant strikes), how much is it worth? 1 face strike? 2? 5? Like 5 Masvidal significant strikes=how much clinch stalling? 3 minutes? 1 minute?

I personally dont think it should be scored AT ALL for either fighter unless something significant happens, i consider that position as "neutral", while 1 person initiated the position, he did not do anything significant with it to earn points.... thats how i look at it and i think its the correct way of looking at it, i think it would encourage more action, discourage stalling and prevent future fights from being ruined.

There are a lot more positives that would be gained by not scoring the "neutral" position than negatives.

 

[Booksmasher]

If he lacked control, why couldn't Masvidal escape the position?

Usman could only control him partially. Enough to keep Masvidal against the fence, but still not enough control to progress to a takedown because he knows if he goes for the takedown Masvidal escapes. And also when he eventually did get a takedown he couldnt do anything with it because he doesnt have full control. Masvidal pops back up.

If fighter A takes fighter B down and lands strikes, it's on fighter B to escape the position to avoid getting scored on.
If fighter A puts fighter B against the cage and lands strikes, isn't it still on fighter B to escape the position to avoid getting scored on?

Well ofcourse! But why cant fighter A progress to takedown > improve position > smash his face > sub/tko? Because he is unable to do it, not skilled enough yet against this fighter B.

 

[Bluehefner]

Need to place a time limit on that wall and stall.

If the fighter applying it cannot get his opponent to the floor, or into a submission, or isn’t striking in any form...break it up after 30-45 seconds. More than likely the fighter applying it is doing so in order to AVOID COMBAT. I don’t understand how avoiding combat can be applied to combat sports.
I guess we should ask Mayweather.

 

[TomTomNT]

Need to place a time limit on that wall and stall.

If the fighter applying it cannot get his opponent to the floor, or into a submission, or isn’t striking in any form...break it up after 30-45 seconds. More than likely the fighter applying it is doing so in order to AVOID COMBAT. I don’t understand how avoiding combat can be applied to combat sports.
I guess we should ask Mayweather.

yeah but there is a big difference to what Mayweather was doing and what Usman was doing... to make this a similar comparison it would be like Maywather constantly goes for a clinch and wont let go for 3-4 minutes at a time, which would be boxing equivalent to entire round... imagine watching that....

Missing punches and countering is entirely different thing then wall and stall, maybe both are not fun to watch, but 1 is pure 100% skill, the other is just physical ability/endurance, nothing to do with skill, just a game being played

 

[EmbraceTheGrind]

Lmfao the rules wont change. take the L. "Side cage clinching" LOL it's called cage pressing idiot.

And Volk > Holloway , Usman > NOMASvidal.

 

[EmbraceTheGrind]

Usman could only control him partially. Enough to keep Masvidal against the fence, but still not enough control to progress to a takedown because he knows if he goes for the takedown Masvidal escapes. And also when he eventually did get a takedown he couldnt do anything with it because he doesnt have full control. Masvidal pops back up.



Well ofcourse! But why cant fighter A progress to takedown > improve position > smash his face > sub/tko? Because he is unable to do it, not skilled enough yet against this fighter B.

Maybe you missed the part where masvidal was intentionally backing up to the fenceso he could do the ATT wall walk... he was getting rag dolled and GNPd in the center of the octagon. Lol. Jorge's defensive wrestling is awful btw.

 

[Booksmasher]

Need to place a time limit on that wall and stall.

No, thats not fair to the ones who use it for wearing opponents out. The problem is not the tactic itself. The problem is rewarding the tactic with 10-9. It should be scored 10-10 instead.

So if we do that the only ones who will use it to wear opponents out have convidence they will later score a 10-8 or a finish.

 

[Booksmasher]

Maybe you missed the part where masvidal was intentionally backing up to the fenceso he could do the ATT wall walk... he was getting rag dolled and GNPd in the center of the octagon. Lol. Jorge's defensive wrestling is awful btw.

Ragdolled? GnPed? You are very good at exxageration mate...

 

[Bluehefner]

yeah but there is a big difference to what Mayweather was doing and what Usman was doing... to make this a similar comparison it would be like Maywather constantly goes for a clinch and wont let go for 3-4 minutes at a time, which would be boxing equivalent to entire round... imagine watching that....

Missing punches and countering is entirely different thing then wall and stall, maybe both are not fun to watch, but 1 is pure 100% skill, the other is just physical ability/endurance, nothing to do with skill, just a game being played

Closest comparison I can think of.

I think of GSP as the equivalent to Floyd. Kamari sort of the same.

Boring technical styles, very little risk.
Efficient of course but not fan pleasing.

 

[djacobox372]

I stopped reading here. It's not 2 fighters pressed up against the side of the cage. It's 1 fighter pressing another fighter up against the cage against the other fighter's will.

Exactly, people should be angry at Masvidal for being so ineffectual, not Usman for fighting a smart fight.

Masvidal put his back on the fence to avoid being taken down, he was the one stalling and holding on.

Go watch Randy vs. Vera if you want to see an example that is worth complaining about.

 

[welcometohavoc]

If 2 fighters are pressed up against the side of the cage, and both are throwing little footsie stomps and shoulder bumps, and nothing significant is being attempt like a takedown, a sub attempt, or even a significant strike, that entire portion of the round should be scored as a draw or should not be scored at all.

I dont see how that is more advantageous for the initiating fighter when he cant do anything because the moment he tries to throw a significant strike or go for a takedown he will lose the position....thats not a area that should be scored for either fighter unless one of those things i mentioned above happens.

Using example from last night Masvidal vs Usman

Usman had Masvidal pressed up the cage in the 2nd round for about 4 minutes...throwing nothing but shoulder bumps and foot stomps....after the clinch broke up, Masvidal threw like 5-10 strikes in a rapid fire burst before the round ended... that round should be scored for Masvidal.... nothing else significant happened....the clinch is not a dominant position the way that Usman was using it, im not talking about Mui Thai plums and judo throws, none of that was even attempted....if a fighter wants to stall against the cage because he is playing the point game, that should be much harder to do then it is now.

again, im not talking about wrestling, im not talking about bjj, im simply talking about the stalling position that Masvidal and Usman were in pressed up against the cage doing literally nothing, that needs to be separated a lot sooner and it should not count for almost any points if any at all as its not an advantageous position that generated any offense.

The problem is athletic commissions being completely phobic to scoring draws

 

[welcometohavoc]

I stopped reading here. It's not 2 fighters pressed up against the side of the cage. It's 1 fighter pressing another fighter up against the cage against the other fighter's will.

Let me ask you a question, if for some reason MMA incorporated something like darts or other skill based game into the sport, would you still consider it fighting simply because its taking place in a sport where people KO and submit each other regularly?

Why does holding someone against a fence mean anything in a sport where the point is to approximate real world fighting as closely as possible?

 

[gevoudane]

There are already rules in place, but they never seem to use it unless its strictly during the stand up and sometimes guard. And its all on the refs now. There is no giving in to the crowd now. They have no excuse.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Let me ask you a question, if for some reason MMA incorporated something like darts or other skill based game into the sport, would you still consider it fighting simply because its taking place in a sport where people KO and submit each other regularly?

Why does holding someone against a fence mean anything in a sport where the point is to approximate real world fighting as closely as possible?

The point is not to approximate real world fighting. It's to win under a certain set of rules. And retraining and neutralizing your opponent is a path to victory.

If it was close to real world fighting then we wouldn't have stand ups, gloves, training camps, etc.

Honestly the UFC is closer to sports entertainment that sports. I understand that Saturday's fight wasn't entertaining but it was sports where one competitor completely dismantled another's game.

And another question. Did the fight not go as expected? The fight went exactly as people thought besides casuals and hardcore Masdival fans. That's how Usman fights. That's why for a long time it was hard for Usman to get a fight. Because he drags you in his wheelhouse. The guy is a beast. He strong, huge for division, great tank, is not a natural striker but has pop in his punches and can take a punch himself.

GSP was just as dominant and boring after his loss to Serra.

 

[TomTomNT]

The problem is athletic commissions being completely phobic to scoring draws

well to be honest, we probably would have a lot less close fights this way because you would have less stalling or stalling would become less efficient... What we consider "draws" are close fights usually because fighters are not very active, and it usually has something to do with lack of action caused by stalling.

Fighters would be swayed more if they knew that just clinching is not going to get them points, thus creating opportunities for actions, thus presenting a window for MMA skill to actually shine and we go from there.

I just feel like the stalling in MMA is not being talked about enough, and the rules that are in place to protect us from it are not being enforced, we should not have entire rounds being wasted by 2 dudes foot stomping each other clinching on the side of the cage... there should be out rage just as much as if a ref lets a fight go on too long (Aldo vs Yan) or an early stoppage....or a bad decision.... there should be a lot more "WTF SEPARATE THEM NOTHING IS GOING ON" and shit like that, hopefully causing more attention for when it happens again and at some point maybe some changes to the rules or the enforcement of rules to help prevent or make "stalling" less effective.

 

[Booksmasher]

well to be honest, we probably would have a lot less close fights this way because you would have less stalling or stalling would become less efficient... What we consider "draws" are close fights usually because fighters are not very active, and it usually has something to do with lack of action caused by stalling.

Fighters would be swayed more if they knew that just clinching is not going to get them points, thus creating opportunities for actions, thus presenting a window for MMA skill to actually shine and we go from there.

I just feel like the stalling in MMA is not being talked about enough, and the rules that are in place to protect us from it are not being enforced, we should not have entire rounds being wasted by 2 dudes foot stomping each other clinching on the side of the cage... there should be out rage just as much as if a ref lets a fight go on too long (Aldo vs Yan) or an early stoppage....or a bad decision.... there should be a lot more "WTF SEPARATE THEM NOTHING IS GOING ON" and shit like that, hopefully causing more attention for when it happens again and at some point maybe some changes to the rules or the enforcement of rules to help prevent or make "stalling" less effective.

I think seperating fighters is not a good idea. Tiring someone first for instance could be a good and legit tactic. But I am a proponent of scoring those stalling things 10-10. So if you can ONLY tire someone, you will never climb the ranks. We weed out all the Usmans this way from the get go. And if you are succesfull in tiring someone you should score at least a 10-8 or a finish.