Shuri-Te Ju-Jutsu

[ElKarlo]

Yay, something I can consider myself an expert in. Their ju-jitsu is an offshoot of Okinawan Toide, the original karate joint-locking system. It's mostly standing up, trapping and opponents arm/leg and using the wrist/ankle to control/injure the opponent. Since the explosion of Judo, several karate styles have mixed in judo throws and falls with their ju-jitsu style. There is little to no ground fighting though, as the thought is to take your opponent down and finish, or to cripple/kill them while still standing. I myself am a 4th degree black belt in Shorin-ryu (which of course is directly related to shuri-te) and have trained both in brazilian ju-jitsu and toide. If you perform a kimura on someone while standing, Voila!!! you have a move straight out of toide.

I trained with Troy Price at a seminar once, and while I'm not sure about his actual fighting ability, his wealth of knowledge is both incredible and highly practical.

I used to do Kobayashi shurin ryu. What did you do? We had a bit of grappling in it. Seems like Toide has mostly dissapeared though=(

 

[bjjaz]

My concern is less about the validity of the style it purports to be and more about the actual authenticity and effectiveness of whatever this random white G.I. who lived in Okinawa for four or five years claims to have learned. Most Japanese Jiu-Jitsu in America has very little authentic relationship to the JJJ that was practiced in Japan over a century ago. JJJ is virtually extinct even in Japan, it has been replaced by Judo and Karate, and even BJJ has gotten popular there. These guys who call themselves JJJ grand masters are taking advantage of that by claiming rank in the most obscure, extinct styles they possibly can, so that it is impossible to verify their actual qualifications. A lot of JJJ guys claim high dan ranks in multiple styles, the names of which are oftentimes simply made-up gibberish.

That, and they probably don't do anything resembling free sparring, it is much more likely to be choreographed/compliant sparring like you see in Aikido.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is an extremely simple, effective, and honest martial art. And most people who have done both seem to agree that BJJ is also way more fun and challenging than JJJ.

I recommend that you don't waste your time training in something completely obscure unless you really find a strong personal connection to that particular instructor and a lot of fulfillment in learning that particular art.

This.

 

[Rod1]

Na, it is not sacarsm.

If you train BJJ, you will get to understand the fundamentals, principles and techniques.

And you won't in Judo or Catch? Judo is one of the most scientific martial arts where you can find a lot of sport articles and a lot of information about technique to a point that its one of the most studied MAs. In BJJ we have people claiming to invent a new style from every single competition version of pretty much anything.

If Judo had people like Eddie Bravo, Judo would have 1 million techniques, Judo purists recognize what competition does to form, and so they force people to learn basic judo, from where everyone can simply diverge, inventing MAs or Substyles, because i do competitive variations its a joke. Every Judoka would have his style.

While BJJ would share similar values (with other Judo or Ju Jutsus of whatever Ryu they claimed to belong to) on the above terms, it is the point system that differiente it from other MAs.

Elaborate.

You should know them to appreciate BJJ otherwise it is non sense comparing apple with orange.

Im pretty aware of competitive BJJ and i have practicded BJJ myself, i have also practiced Judo and wrestling. Who is the one now talking about mystic principles

 

[Rod1]

My concern is less about the validity of the style it purports to be and more about the actual authenticity and effectiveness of whatever this random white G.I. who lived in Okinawa for four or five years claims to have learned.

This is important, however im seeing that he trained more than 4 years.

Most Japanese Jiu-Jitsu in America has very little authentic relationship to the JJJ that was practiced in Japan over a century ago

.

Of course, original JJJ really sucked and was very brutal to practice, they basically bullied people on the street to get their live sparring.

JJJ is virtually extinct even in Japan, it has been replaced by Judo and Karate, and even BJJ has gotten popular there

.

Its virtually extinct because all JJJ derive and borrow heavily from Judo, just like Brazilian "Jiujitsu" doesn't really comes from JJJ.

These guys who call themselves JJJ grand masters are taking advantage of that by claiming rank in the most obscure, extinct styles they possibly can, so that it is impossible to verify their actual qualifications.

Good luck we have the internet.

A lot of JJJ guys claim high dan ranks in multiple styles, the names of which are oftentimes simply made-up gibberish.

Agreed, but you can also claim blackbelt or even get a BB in Judo and any other martial art and setup a BS school. I have met countless of BS Judo BBs. BJJ has a good system until now, but eventually will fall into the same problem of having BS high belts.

That, and they probably don't do anything resembling free sparring, it is much more likely to be choreographed/compliant sparring like you see in Aikido.

They would probably have both. At least that's why they post and one of the requirements for their belt ranks.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is an extremely simple, effective, and honest martial art. And most people who have done both seem to agree that BJJ is also way more fun and challenging than JJJ.

Its kind of dishonest to claim that all JJJ is BS because JJJ died with Judo and claim that BJJ is legit, the fact is that pretty much all japanese derived grappling come from Kano. They may diverge greatly over the decades but they still have the same principles, hopefully.

That school is recognized by the USJJA too, so we see it was not invented yesterday.

I recommend that you don't waste your time training in something completely obscure unless you really find a strong personal connection to that particular instructor and a lot of fulfillment in learning that particular art.

I find training under different people and mentalities interesting, if someone is BS, at worst i wasted a month. I would agree however that a good base in a sport MA its recommended.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

You do understand that brazilian jiujitsu came from japanese jujitsu (hence the use of the japanese word) right? The founder was a student of Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and was trying to get the fighting application back into jujitsu since judo frankly watered it down. You can still find highly effective versions of japanese jujitsu though, and at the least don't put down the forefathers of the Gracie's style. If it wasn't for the japanese, there would be no brazilian jujitsu.

I think every single person on this forum understands that.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

ROD1, you are really into the judo vs bjj hu????

Well, too bad WE OWN YOUR ASSES... plain and simple, you really starting to piss me off, every time you post, somehow you try to lead the discussion towards bjj sucks judo kick ass, while in reality, WE OWN YOUR ASSES... you guys suck on the ground, plain and simple, aside from the elite, YOU GUYS SUCK... the average judo black blet wont last 3 minutes with the average bjj blue belt.... and lets not even go to MMA, where I can count with my hands how many top judo practitioners are, try to count how many mma fighters are doing bjj as their grappling base, good luck, see you in 2 years, once you are done with the count...

Seriusly man, STFU....

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

ROD1, you are really into the judo vs bjj hu????

Well, too bad WE OWN YOUR ASSES... plain and simple, you really starting to piss me off, every time you post, somehow you try to lead the discussion towards bjj sucks judo kick ass, while in reality, WE OWN YOUR ASSES... you guys suck on the ground, plain and simple, aside from the elite, YOU GUYS SUCK... the average judo black blet wont last 3 minutes with the average bjj blue belt.... and lets not even go to MMA, where I can count with my hands how many top judo practitioners are, try to count how many mma fighters are doing bjj as their grappling base, good luck, see you in 2 years, once you are done with the count...

Seriusly man, STFU....

Beautiful. Way to represent the art as a bunch of arrogant jerks, and inevitably prompt an equally stupid response.

 

[lechien]

And you won't in Judo or Catch? Judo is one of the most scientific martial arts where you can find a lot of sport articles and a lot of information about technique to a point that its one of the most studied MAs. In BJJ we have people claiming to invent a new style from every single competition version of pretty much anything.

If Judo had people like Eddie Bravo, Judo would have 1 million techniques, Judo purists recognize what competition does to form, and so they force people to learn basic judo, from where everyone can simply diverge, inventing MAs or Substyles, because i do competitive variations its a joke. Every Judoka would have his style.



Elaborate.

Im pretty aware of competitive BJJ and i have practicded BJJ myself, i have also practiced Judo and wrestling. Who is the one now talking about mystic principles

I was not telling you to learn about BJJ. I was telling the other guy.

oh nice try for trying to turn this thread into Judo vs BJJ as usual. :icon_chee

 

[ShindoNinja]

You do understand that brazilian jiujitsu came from japanese jujitsu (hence the use of the japanese word) right? The founder was a student of Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and was trying to get the fighting application back into jujitsu since judo frankly watered it down. You can still find highly effective versions of japanese jujitsu though, and at the least don't put down the forefathers of the Gracie's style. If it wasn't for the japanese, there would be no brazilian jujitsu.

Everyone knows this but the truth is you need to be extremely careful with Japanese JJ schools. North American JJJ has become watered down in general. Just like Karate in the 80's. Going with a BJJ school is a better bet purely because of Randori (sparring). Finding a JJJ school that actually fights is rare but possible.

I go to a school that teaches a mix of Judo and ground work. The system is close to Camarrillo's Guerrilla JJ. We to stand up fighting and ground fighting every class. The instructor has striped out all of the fluffy un-realistic techniques for JJJ and kept the stuff that BJJ was actually created from. We are technically under the Canadian JuJitsu Association, but I would quite frankly never train at one of the other schools that don't actually train to fight. JJJ without sparring is pretty much just Aikido. Sure it can teach you lots of things but fighting an unwilling opponent is not one of those things.

The last thing I would say is that some people no not want to spar and really just want to train in a traditional art. If that is you that that is fine. Don't let people on Sherdog tell you it's useless. Hard core training is not for everyone. If you like the place you tried out that's great. Keep going. If you want to compete in grappling tournaments, then go train somewhere that prepares you to do that.

 

[ShindoNinja]

Beautiful. Way to represent the art as a bunch of arrogant jerks, and inevitably prompt an equally stupid response.

Exactly. This kind of thing is why BJJ seems so elitist.

 

[lechien]

Exactly. This kind of thing is why BJJ seems so elitist.

Not really, did you notice on how Rod1 comes to any threads and regardless of the topic, he turns everything about Judo vs BJJ?

I just mentionned that BJJ has its own competition rules which differentiate the art from its origins.

then Rod1 gave a verbal Diarrhea on Judo vs BJJ!

 

[bnosam]

Not really, did you notice on how Rod1 comes to any threads and regardless of the topic, he turns everything about Judo vs BJJ?

I just mentionned that BJJ has its own competition rules which differentiate the art from its origins.

then Rod1 gave a verbal Diarrhea on Judo vs BJJ!

The only problem really I think is homosexuals, we need more threads about them and grappling. They're TERRIBLE!

 

[Rod1]

ROD1, you are really into the judo vs bjj hu????

I did?

Let me requote who was i replying.

The reason for the sucess of BJJ or GJJ is in the point system: the core of the self defense which cannot be found or imitated by other MA regardless that they share the same techniques!

How is that not snob elitism and basically saying that all MA are for shows and only BJJ is real?

The concepts involved in BJJ its not new, they have been around for over a century, just because they came to America yesterday, it doesn't means its new.

Well, too bad WE OWN YOUR ASSES... plain and simple, you really starting to piss me off, every time you post, somehow you try to lead the discussion towards bjj sucks judo kick ass, while in reality, WE OWN YOUR ASSES...

No, certain BJJ players own Judo guys on BJJ rules.

But all judoka can defend themselves or at least be decent in BJJ rules, take a newly made BJJ into a Judo tournament and he loses first fight. Unless he is really elite.

GJJ just made a name of beating crappy American judokas with no groundwork and really fell apart when they started challenging Japanese wrestlers and judoka.

Both arts are incredibily similar in concept, they just vary on the rules.

you guys suck on the ground, plain and simple, aside from the elite, YOU GUYS SUCK... the average judo black blet wont last 3 minutes with the average bjj blue belt....

Belt colours mean almost nothing in Judo.

and lets not even go to MMA, where I can count with my hands how many top judo practitioners are, try to count how many mma fighters are doing bjj as their grappling base, good luck, see you in 2 years, once you are done with the count..

.

BJJ and Judo newaza are practically the same thing, a wrestler learning to do a triangle is not a BJJ guy.

MMA is being completely ruled by folkstyle wrestlers nowadays, the guys that came straigth of BJJ can also be counted with the hands, there is also the difference that there are one million BJJ guys jumping wagons into MMA, while only some retired judokas are doing so.

Which its not the point in the first place, as Judo depends a lot in the grips, any Judoka jumping wagons need to crosstrain, just like any BJJ needs to crosstrain too.

The hilarity its claiming that Lesnar its a BJJ guy because he did an armtriangle, i could claim the very same thing and say that Lesnar is a judo guy because he did an ude sankaku jime.

In the end

Practitioner >>>>>>>>>>>>> art.

Seriusly man, STFU..

Why should i STFU? so its ok for BJJ practitioners to call everyone a phoney, an snake oil seller, and pretty much idiots and pussies, but when someone says that BJJ did not invented slice bread, then its a troll? lol

I really like BJJ, and i still consider myself a BJJ practitioner.

 

[Rod1]

I was not telling you to learn about BJJ. I was telling the other guy.

oh nice try for trying to turn this thread into Judo vs BJJ as usual. :icon_chee

Im not the one that claimed that BJJ point system is what made BJJ unique and not being able to be imitated by any other MA (including boxing, Judo, folkstyle, greco and freestyle wrestling etc etc).

Or maybe you can accept that you overstated what you meant.

 

[bnosam]

I did?

Let me requote who was i replying.



How is that not snob elitism and basically saying that all MA are for shows and only BJJ is real?

The concepts involved in BJJ its not new, they have been around for over a century, just because they came to America yesterday, it doesn't means its new.



No, certain BJJ players own Judo guys on BJJ rules.

But all judoka can defend themselves or at least be decent in BJJ rules, take a newly made BJJ into a Judo tournament and he loses first fight. Unless he is really elite.

GJJ just made a name of beating crappy American judokas with no groundwork and really fell apart when they started challenging Japanese wrestlers and judoka.

Both arts are incredibily similar in concept, they just vary on the rules.



Belt colours mean almost nothing in Judo.

.

BJJ and Judo newaza are practically the same thing, a wrestler learning to do a triangle is not a BJJ guy.

MMA is being completely ruled by folkstyle wrestlers nowadays, the guys that came straigth of BJJ can also be counted with the hands, there is also the difference that there are one million BJJ guys jumping wagons into MMA, while only some retired judokas are doing so.

Which its not the point in the first place, as Judo depends a lot in the grips, any Judoka jumping wagons need to crosstrain, just like any BJJ needs to crosstrain too.

The hilarity its claiming that Lesnar its a BJJ guy because he did an armtriangle, i could claim the very same thing and say that Lesnar is a judo guy because he did an ude sankaku jime.

In the end

Practitioner >>>>>>>>>>>>> art.



Why should i STFU? so its ok for BJJ practitioners to call everyone a phoney, an snake oil seller, and pretty much idiots and pussies, but when someone says that BJJ did not invented slice bread, then its a troll? lol

I really like BJJ, and i still consider myself a BJJ practitioner.

Hey Rod, go pull the Judo rod out of your ass and stop trolling

 

[Rod1]

Not really, did you notice on how Rod1 comes to any threads and regardless of the topic, he turns everything about Judo vs BJJ?

I just mentionned that BJJ has its own competition rules which differentiate the art from its origins.

then Rod1 gave a verbal Diarrhea on Judo vs BJJ!

LOL nice flipflopping, lets quote you again.

The reason for the sucess of BJJ or GJJ is in the point system: the core of the self defense which cannot be found or imitated by other MA regardless that they share the same techniques!

Lets see what you meant

-The point system is the core of selfdefense

-It cannot be imitated by other martial arts, even if they share the same techniques.

Therefore we can assume that since Judo, other JJ styles, wrestling and grappling in general don't share the same point system as BJJ then

-Those martial arts don't work for self-defense.

 

[lechien]

Im not the one that claimed that BJJ point system is what made BJJ unique and not being able to be imitated by any other MA (including boxing, Judo, folkstyle, greco and freestyle wrestling etc etc).

Or maybe you can accept that you overstated what you meant.

I did not overstated anything.

BJJ and others MA shares the same techniques.

BJJ has its own rules which are unique and make it as different from others.

2 points tkd,
2 guard pass
2 KOB
4 mount, back control.

The reason for the sucess of BJJ or GJJ is in the point system: the core of the self defense which cannot be found or imitated by other MA regardless that they share the same techniques!

It cannot be found or imitated by other MA is because they have their own set of rules.

If you cannot understand that!!!

 

[Rod1]

Hey Rod, go pull the Judo rod out of your ass and stop trolling

n Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.

Yeah, insulting its not trolling, right.

Sorry for even assuming that BJJ is not the ultimate form of grappling that Moses learned while in the mountains when talking with God. And god forbid someone calls any technique found in BJJ as anything else than BJJ.

Those japanese, europeans and americans are such copycats, calling the Kimura an Ude garami or double wristlock? eveyrone knows Kimura was invented by a Brazilian guy that was born in japan and traveled time to learn it from Rickson in the future and then came back to teach him to his father Helio in an effort to save the world from Cyberdyne robots which can only be defeated with BJJ.

Sure man.

 

[lechien]

LOL nice flipflopping, lets quote you again.



Lets see what you meant

-The point system is the core of selfdefense

-It cannot be imitated by other martial arts, even if they share the same techniques.

Therefore we can assume that since Judo, other JJ styles, wrestling and grappling in general don't share the same point system as BJJ then

-Those martial arts don't work for self-defense.

You came up to this conclusion all by yourselves!!! Nice trolling!!!

Where did I mention that BJJ is the best?

 

[bnosam]