Should wilder be considered a p4p great

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Seano said:
Nonsense. He was an Olympic medalist, he beat several former champions and defended his title 10 times. No one is saying he's Ali incarnate but calling him a can is just deliberate ignorance.
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Jonny Ninja said:
I’m not sure he’s beaten any former champions? He’s lost to a couple
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Seano said:
Liakovich and Stiverne.
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I'd say this is the epitome of being damned by faint praise.

Liakhovic was completely shot and coming off consecutive stoppage losses when he fought Wilder. He'd never succesfully defended the WBO belt 7 years prior anyway, having lost twice immediately after winning it.

This counts as beating a former world champion in the same way that Vitor Belfort beat an ATG in Holyfield.

Stiverne beat Chris Arreola for his alphabet - hardly the most legitimate alphabet win and he never defended it. Aside from beating a journeyman in between Wilder fights, he never won another fight after losing to him, because he was already old as fuck.

Liakhovic was 37 Stiverne was 36 and 39 when he fought Wilder - basically the same ages you use as a safety blanket to explain why Wilder couldn't even win a single round against Parker.

Wilder's can/elderly-crushing career doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny, and the coping you are doing over it is quite embarrassing.
 
Dr Fong said:
I'd say this is the epitome of being damned by faint praise.

Liakhovic was completely shot and coming off consecutive stoppage losses when he fought Wilder. He'd never succesfully defended the WBO belt 7 years prior anyway, having lost twice immediately after winning it.

This counts as beating a former world champion in the same way that Vitor Belfort beat an ATG in Holyfield.

Stiverne beat Chris Arreola for his alphabet - hardly the most legitimate alphabet win and he never defended it. Aside from beating a journeyman in between Wilder fights, he never won another fight after losing to him, because he was already old as fuck.

Liakhovic was 37 Stiverne was 36 and 39 when he fought Wilder - basically the same ages you use as a safety blanket to explain why Wilder couldn't even win a single round against Parker.

Wilder's can/elderly-crushing career doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny, and the coping you are doing over it is quite embarrassing.
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Again, no one is saying he's the greatest. If I were, I'd be exaggerating his ability as much as you are. He medaled in the Olympics, won world titles, beat former champs and defended his belt against legitimate contenders 10 times. Very few boxers achieve what Wilder has achieved. There's a space in between Ali and Butterbean in the all time ranks, not being the absolute best ever doesn't mean you're dog shit.
 
Dr Fong said:
I'd say this is the epitome of being damned by faint praise.

Liakhovic was completely shot and coming off consecutive stoppage losses when he fought Wilder. He'd never succesfully defended the WBO belt 7 years prior anyway, having lost twice immediately after winning it.

This counts as beating a former world champion in the same way that Vitor Belfort beat an ATG in Holyfield.

Stiverne beat Chris Arreola for his alphabet - hardly the most legitimate alphabet win and he never defended it. Aside from beating a journeyman in between Wilder fights, he never won another fight after losing to him, because he was already old as fuck.

Liakhovic was 37 Stiverne was 36 and 39 when he fought Wilder - basically the same ages you use as a safety blanket to explain why Wilder couldn't even win a single round against Parker.

Wilder's can/elderly-crushing career doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny, and the coping you are doing over it is quite embarrassing.
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I don't disagree with your assessment about how weak his title reign was. Having said that, he did beat some world class boxers in the amateurs. Top world level guys.
 
Seano said:
Again, no one is saying he's the greatest. If I were, I'd be exaggerating his ability as much as you are. He medaled in the Olympics, won world titles, beat former champs and defended his belt against legitimate contenders 10 times. Very few boxers achieve what Wilder has achieved. There's a space in between Ali and Butterbean in the all time ranks, not being the absolute best ever doesn't mean you're dog shit.
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I'm not saying he is dog shit. He's in the top 5 greatest punchers of all time, he had a good chin and he had heart as well. He showed how far this can take you in HW boxing.

The problem is that your argument ends in the right spot but your list of context-free achievements is a disingenuous attempt to artificially pump up Wilder's resume.

Wilder's wins over those 'former champs' means little, just like it means nothing for Vitor Belfort. Hell, in the context of Belfort we are at least talking about an ATG, not a random alphabet holder. It's not a serious argument a knowledgeable boxing fan would use to boost someone's resume.

You could through boxrec and find hundreds of random bums that have wins over former alphabet holders.

Stiverne was already old and a very weak champ in the first place. But it's legitimate enough to list as a solid win, I guess. Liakhovic was completely shot to pieces and is not at all legit. It undermines one's credibility to include that win as a serious achievement.

Nobody will disagree that he was a unique fighter that is worthy of a place in history. Just not as a serious champion with a deep resume.
 
Dr Fong said:
He's in the top 5 greatest punchers of all time,
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lul. Only if your a casual. He is not even worthy or mentioning as an all time puncher. Knocking out a bunch of cans is nothing special. You just got caught up in the hype you were sold.
 
Roids said:
lul. Only if your a casual. He is not even worthy or mentioning as an all time puncher. Knocking out a bunch of cans is nothing special. You just got caught up in the hype you were sold.
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He fell for the 'hype' of Wilder's power? Apparently so did the rest of this forum because he was rated the second greatest heavyweight puncher of all-time in a recent poll here. Foreman ended up winning it.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
He fell for the 'hype' of Wilder's power? Apparently so did the rest of this forum because he was rated the second greatest heavyweight puncher of all-time in a recent poll here. Foreman ended up winning it.
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That's interesting he placed above Shavers. I guess Shavers reputation fell off here in recent years.
 
Seano said:
Nonsense. He was an Olympic medalist, he beat several former champions and defended his title 10 times. No one is saying he's Ali incarnate but calling him a can is just deliberate ignorance.
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I disliked wilder for a lot of his reign but the hate he gets right now is silly. It’s a lot of bitter aj fans that had to stomach him getting koed by fat journeyman and losing twice to a cruiserweight, they get to point the finger at wilder now
 
iwannabeadored said:
I disliked wilder for a lot of his reign but the hate he gets right now is silly. It’s a lot of bitter aj fans that had to stomach him getting koed by fat journeyman and losing twice to a cruiserweight, they get to point the finger at wilder now
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Ruiz is fat but no journeyman. He only had one loss before he beat AJ in the first fight and it was a controversial decision against Parker. Realistically Parker got a gift that night. Usyk also wasn't just any cruiserweight. He's arguably the greatest cruiser of all time. No worse than No. 2 behind Holyfield.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
Ruiz is fat but no journeyman. He only had one loss before he beat AJ in the first fight and it was a controversial decision against Parker. Realistically Parker got a gift that night. Usyk also wasn't just any cruiserweight. He's arguably the greatest cruiser of all time. No worse than No. 2 behind Holyfield.
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Ruiz barely beat 58 year old Luis Ortiz. Who has Andy beaten besides Joshua?
 
iwannabeadored said:
Ruiz barely beat 58 year old Luis Ortiz. Who has Andy beaten besides Joshua?
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That's probably a motivation problem. He fell off after AJ boxed him up in their rematch. As I said in my last post most thought that Ruiz should have a victory over Parker, he beat an old Ortiz, and beat a prime Joshua in the first fight. That's already a better heavyweight resume right there than a lot of the others in the division today can boast.

You must not know the history of the heavyweight division very well. Just looking at the last 20 years or so two of the most dominant champs both lost to journeymen. Wlad did and so did Lewis. In Lewis' case he lost to two, both by KO/stoppage, and this was after he was already an established champ.
 
Powerwise only. Boxing/adjustement ability, I'd rank him below Jake Paul at this point.
 
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