Shoguns lost it.

ABSthetics said:
Bader is a big, strong dude. The Tito fight will forever haunt him and I see Shogun using his BJJ to pull off a sub. This is a fight where Shogun, if he stays off his back long enough could land a big shot and KO him.

I'm not dissing Bader but I would love to see him fight a healthy Rampage. Jon Jones has 20 times the wrestling of Bader and is arguably much stronger. Rampage stuffed so many of Bones' TDs without breaking a sweat. It was clear Page was injured. Bader wishes on a star he could be as competent in MMA wrestling as Jones.
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trane said:
Rampage was injured(fought on a bum knee) and out of shape, so you really have to put that fight into perspective.

The fight is not relevant in how he would perform against Shogun, it showed us nothing.
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no fighter is ever 100 percent. injury claims are all bs to me since everybody can claim them.

supposedly machida fought shogun with a broken hand but i never hear people saying he was injured and thats why he got knocked out

rampage even said his knee wasnt bothering him until bader slammed him in the 2nd or 3rd round

for all we know bader was injured also.

and to say that fight showed us nothing is laughable
 
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mawashi geri said:
no fighter is ever 100 percent. injury claims are all bs to me since everybody can claim them.

supposedly machida fought shogun with a broken hand but i never hear people saying he was injured and thats why he got knocked out

rampage even said his knee wasnt bothering him until bader slammed him in the 2nd or 3rd round

for all we know bader was injured also.

and to say that fight showed us nothing is laughable
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Rampage's fight with Jones to Bader is a world apart in how Page performed. Rampage had godly TDD against Jones. Its simple deduction through observation that something was up with Page.

In no way shape, fashion, or form is Bader a better wrestler than Jon Jones. Not saying I disagree with your post. All your posts have been very well put. Its just clear to me that something was in fact wrong with Rampage.
 
ABSthetics said:
Rampage's fight with Jones to Bader is a world apart in how Page performed. Rampage had godly TDD against Jones. Its simple deduction through observation that something was up with Page.

In no way shape, fashion, or form is Bader a better wrestler than Jon Jones. Not saying I disagree with your post. All your posts have been very well put. Its just clear to me that something was in fact wrong with Rampage.
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fair enough

but imo jones wasnt really trying 100 percent to take rampage down early in the fight he was half assing it/playing around and experimenting and once he actually committed he took him down easily

so those shots he defended werent actually jones best td's thats why it looked so good hence the allusion of him being different from fight to fight
 
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mawashi geri said:
fair enough

but imo jones wasnt really trying 100 percent to take rampage down early in the fight and once he actually committed he took him down easily

so those shots he defended werent actually jones best td's thats why it looked so good
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Hmm not sure about that.
 
JKS said:
What the hell are you talking about?? Have you even read what I said. Who is talking about excuses of improvment here??

Im talking about how many so called wars and tough fights he's had. I've seen every single one of his fights going back before Pride. Dont try and challenge me on that.
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Calm down, superfan. How you can claim to be a Shogun fan and not acknowledge all the damage he's been taking in training and fights since he was a kid is baffling to me. Hell, there's a video up of him getting KO'd in a smoker when he was a teenager, I know you've seen it. Yeah, he's walked through a lot of fighters. He's also walked through a lot of strikes, and that shit adds up over a decade, ESPECIALLY when you come up in Chute Boxe 10+ years ago. Plus, he wears punches to get inside and clinch/knee/trip, and his head movement is rudimentary at best, so he really does take damage.

Face it. He's becoming a stripped gear, one broken spline at a time. It sucks for people who have been watching him forever, but it's not negotiable. His physical abilities are fading, and he may soon be nothing but a chin and big power. I don't want to see that Mauricio Rua fighting elite comp.
 
CrashStitches said:
Calm down, superfan. How you can claim to be a Shogun fan and not acknowledge all the damage he's been taking in training and fights since he was a kid is baffling to me. Hell, there's a video up of him getting KO'd in a smoker when he was a teenager, I know you've seen it. Yeah, he's walked through a lot of fighters. He's also walked through a lot of strikes, and that shit adds up over a decade, ESPECIALLY when you come up in Chute Boxe 10+ years ago. Plus, he wears punches to get inside and clinch/knee/trip, and his head movement is rudimentary at best, so he really does take damage.

Face it. He's becoming a stripped gear, one broken spline at a time. It sucks for people who have been watching him forever, but it's not negotiable. His physical abilities are fading, and he may soon be nothing but a chin and big power. I don't want to see that Mauricio Rua fighting elite comp.
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Yeah....and so have so many other fighters. So has Hendo and a bunch of other guys. But yet the focus is always on SHogun.

Its not that I dont acknowledge it, its just taht I accept it and understand it as part of the game.
 
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JKS said:
Yeah....and so have so many other fighters. So has Hendo and a bunch of other guys. But yet the focus is always on SHogun.

Its not that I dont acknowledge it, its just taht I accept it and understand it as part of the game.
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mawashi geri said:
fair enough

but imo jones wasnt really trying 100 percent to take rampage down early in the fight he was half assing it/playing around and experimenting and once he actually committed he took him down easily

so those shots he defended werent actually jones best td's thats why it looked so good hence the allusion of him being different from fight to fight
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Hmm, ill have to watch that fight again since you mentioned that. Rampage has always had some stellar TDD. Bader did have his number either way there is no arguing that.
 
How many of those old Chute Boxe guys (besides Anderson) have aged gracefully? Wand, Shogun, Ninja, Pele, those guys just take/took more and more damage. They're all true warriors, but they all came from a slaughterhouse, and all but Shogun have been devastatingly slept as they get older. I don't want to see Shogun beaten retarded like Ninja, or until his chin becomes paper like Chuck's.

Give him money matchups from here on out.
 
JKS said:
What the hell are you talking about?? Have you even read what I said. Who is talking about excuses of improvment here??

Im talking about how many so called wars and tough fights he's had. I've seen every single one of his fights going back before Pride. Dont try and challenge me on that.

Most LHWs have fought similar fights, Rampage, Hendo, Forrest, Rogerio all have fought many tough fights, fights where you would qualify as wars. Guys like Machida have lost to every top fighter he has fought (almost) but yet no one critices him.
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why should people critisize lyoto? He only lost to shogun and jones, he lost to rampage on paper, but the only one doing any real damage in that fight was machida
 
CrashStitches said:
So you do agree he's past his prime? Or were you just arguing pedantically with me over your definition of what a "war" is?
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Im just argueing that Shogun shouldnt be singled out as a guy who's had a very tough career when there are 80% of fighters that fight those type of fights consistently. Its MMA, that how majority of fighters careers go. I named a few afterwards, I edited the thread.

No! Shogun is not past his prime, he`s had tough part of his career with injuries and ups and downs. But my opinion is not that he doesnt have it, or he`s passed his prime. Im saying that he just wasnt that good to begin with. People regard Shogun up there with the bes of the best. I see him a good fighter, a top LHW, but not really anyone that stands out over the other top guys.
 
It's not a stretch to say Shogun will never contend again. However he showed against Gus that both his standup and ground are still a major danger to anyone bar the absolute elite.
 
JKS said:
Im just argueing that Shogun shouldnt be singled out as a guy who's had a very tough career when there are 80% of fighters that fight those type of fights consistently. Its MMA, that how majority of fighters careers go. I named a few afterwards, I edited the thread.

No! Shogun is not past his prime, he`s had tough part of his career with injuries and ups and downs. But my opinion is not that he doesnt have it, or he`s passed his prime. Im saying that he just wasnt that good to begin with. People regard Shogun up there with the bes of the best. I see him a good fighter, a top LHW, but not really anyone that stands out over the other top guys.
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what? no way, shogun had killer thai boxing during pride and the chuck and machida fights, I seriously think it has to do with his knees? Why is he not kicking as much?
 
OldManGrip said:
what? no way, shogun had killer thai boxing during pride and the chuck and machida fights, I seriously think it has to do with his knees? Why is he not kicking as much?
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He did.....but why he doesnt kick as much. I have no idea to be honest. Is it the injuries? The style of fights? The fact that finds that his punches are more effective? Im not sure.
 
CrashStitches said:
How many of those old Chute Boxe guys (besides Anderson) have aged gracefully? Wand, Shogun, Ninja, Pele, those guys just take/took more and more damage. They're all true warriors, but they all came from a slaughterhouse, and all but Shogun have been devastatingly slept as they get older. I don't want to see Shogun beaten retarded like Ninja, or until his chin becomes paper like Chuck's.

Give him money matchups from here on out.
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What kind of money matchups are available where he won't sustain too much damage?

I think he should be fight a few guys towards the bottom of the top 10 also. Maybe a fight with T.Silva. A bout with Maldonado would be amazing as well, but that man needs a vacation and a can. Hes earned it.
 
mawashi geri said:
no fighter is ever 100 percent. injury claims are all bs to me since everybody can claim them.

supposedly machida fought shogun with a broken hand but i never hear people saying he was injured and thats why he got knocked out

rampage even said his knee wasnt bothering him until bader slammed him in the 2nd or 3rd round

for all we know bader was injured also.

and to say that fight showed us nothing is laughable
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Bader was indeed injured too(I believe). Not all injuries are the same and effect you the same way, so that's completely irrelevant. Unless they both had the exact same injury, like I said, it's irrelevant. Rampage's injury clearly effected his preparation, and he missed weight for the first time in his ufc career(by a large margin as well).

We can pretend it played no role in the fight, or we can put it in perspective, which is what I did.

Did I say the win didn't count? No. But did it really prove anything? In my eyes, no.
 
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