Movies Serious Movie Discussion

[Rimbaud82]

Amadeus (1984)

I am truly and utterly bewildered by the praise heaped upon this film. Going off Letterboxd, Rotten Tomatoes etc. this film is meant to be some kind of masterpiece. For me it was simply a preposterous, overlong bore. From the moment Tom Hulce's high-pitched shriek first pierced through my soul I knew I was going to be in for a tough time of it.

First of all there's a lot to criticise about the pacing. I don't think it does anything close to enough to justifying it's lengthy run-time. There are several plot points which feel totally superfluous to the broader story the film is trying to tell. But the main problem I had was the utterly ludicrous tone of the film and its characterisations. What is obviously designed to show the eccentric genius of Mozart in contrast to the petty morality of high society simply comes off as boorish nonsense. The real Mozart was fond of the odd fart joke but he wasn't a giggling moron. I didn't buy Tom Hulce in the role for a second and I am truly astounded that he was nominated for an Academy award.

This goes for most of the characters in all honesty, including Elizabeth Berridge who is as bad or worse as Constanze Mozart. F. Murray Abraham as Salieri was the one bright spot for me, though Jeffrey Jones was passable as Emperor Joseph II. These were exceptions though. Far from a window into Mozart's genius or the context of the time, the entire film simply felt like a bunch of Americans wearing silly wigs. It certainly did not strike me as capturing the essence of the 18th century Viennese court culture it purports to depict.

Historical accuracy aside there are obviously interesting themes which may have been drawn out of this invented murderous rivalry between Mozart and Salieri (the films central conceit), including this dichotomy of genius and mediocrity set up Amadeus. Once again though I found Miloš Forman handling of those themes one-dimensional and honestly just boring. I did not find Mozart, his wife or really any of the characters likeable or in anyway engaging either, and so any human drama fell totally flat with me as well. In a way of course Forman isn't intending to depict literal portrayals of these historical figures, but using them as stand-ins to tell his story. However that doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean that the story itself was successful. On pretty much every level I found nothing to engage with here.

Rarely have I found my opinion on a film so totally at odds with what seems to be the received wisdom surrounding it. For me this was not a good film at all.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

To be fair I think the film isn't really aiming to show Mozart in a positive light with that characterisation, he's sposed to come off as a selfish fool, just a fairly harmless one unworthy of Saleri's extreme hatred.

Its been awhile since I watch it but my memory was definitely that it feels very bloated and quite in line with the "merchant ivory" obcession the Oscars had in this era(Chariots of Fire, A Passage to India, Ghandi, etc), a lot of quite turgid films that seemed choosen more for what they were not(entertainment blockbusters) than their having great merits.

Something like Once Upon A Time In America released the same year which I think does a lot more to justify its runtime was mostly ignored, partly I suspect because it had the whiff of pulp to it.

 

[KOQ24]

I love Amadeus.
I legit can't compregend anyone finding that Film boring.

Don't forget that the Film is told through Salieri's perspective, so it's no surprise that Mozart is portrayed even more childish than from the historical perspective.


If you're looking for boring, underserved 80s Oscar winners there's still the piece of shit that is Out of Africa

 

[europe1]

I can't wait until Rimbaud82 reviews Braveheart so that he can finally talk about a film that satisfies his need for historical accuracy!

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I love Amadeus.
I legit can't compregend anyone finding that Film boring.

Don't forget that the Film is told through Salieri's perspective, so it's no surprise that Mozart is portrayed even more childish than from the historical perspective.

If you're looking for boring, underserved 80s Oscar winners there's still the piece of shit that is Out of Africa

Your talking probably 15 years since I last watched it so my opinion might be different but yeah stuff like Out of Africa was extremely bland, generally I think the 80's were probably the worst ever decade for the Oscars, started okish I spose but pretty soon they were turning their noses up at pretty much anything even somewhat genrish.

I mean standard entertainment blockbusters have never been something they go for that often but none of the below were nominated...

The Shining
Blade Runner
Once Upon A Time In America
Full Metal Jacket
Angel Heart
Paris' Texas
Brazil
Rumble Fish
Birdy
The King of Comedy
Ran
Wings of Desire
etc

 

[Rimbaud82]

The Traitor (2019)

Very much liked the sound of this one from the little I read beforehand - a meaty drama spanning several decades dealing with the first member of the Sicilian Mafia to turn State Informant. In execution though, I found Il traditore to be a fairly uninspiring Crime drama.

The film opens in the early 1980s just as an all-out war is erupting between feuding Cosa Nostra clans, a combination of family vendettas and a desire to control the immensely profitable international Heroin trade. Tommaso Buscetta, a made man known as "the boss of two worlds", flees to his second home in Brazil. From there he learns of the bloodshed taking place in Sicily and of the murder of his two sons. He is quickly arrested by Brazilian police and extradited to Italy. Apparently believing himself to be upholding the values of "the Old Cosa Nostra" in the face of these brutal upstarts Buscetta decides to break the quasi-sacred code of Omerta and spill the Sicilian Mafia's long-held secrets. What follows is the largest Anti-Mafia trial in history, in which hundreds are arrested and the inner-workings of the Mafia revealed for the first time.

That all sounds like a great base for a Mafia story, and of course it's not a completely terrible film by any stretch. There are some interesting themes drawn out - of questions of loyalty, belonging and identity especially - and one or two moments do stand out. It's also very stylishly shot. The courtroom scenes in particular, while lengthy, are some of the strongest. On the whole though, for a film that runs to 2 hours and 35 minutes I found the narrative to be rather detached and disconnected. For long portions, particularly early on, things just seem to drift along dispassionately and with little in the way of connective tissue. Things just seem to happen and it's all very matter-of-fact, the film doesn't invite much emotional connection with these characters or ever attempt to probe much beneath the surface of their motivations.

Considered as a whole there ultimately just wasn't much to excite here.

 

[Rimbaud82]

I love Amadeus.
I legit can't compregend anyone finding that Film boring.

Don't forget that the Film is told through Salieri's perspective, so it's no surprise that Mozart is portrayed even more childish than from the historical perspective.

I cannot even comprehend anyone enjoying it. But each to their own.

 

[Rimbaud82]

I can't wait until Rimbaud82 reviews Braveheart so that he can finally talk about a film that satisfies his need for historical accuracy!

Spoiler

 

[Sisyphos]

Out of Africa was not that bad.
I remember beautiful visuals and pretty great romance story.
Anything Robert Redford is in, is pretty great.

 

[Rimbaud82]

A Bronx Tale (1993)

A decent, largely by-the-numbers gangster film. It makes effective use of a very tight script - a young Bronx kid torn between the conflicting tensions of his fathers working class values and the allure of the local Mafia with all the wealth and respect that it brings. We are given an extremely vivid depiction of this close-knit Bronx neighborhood in which talking to the police is a crime worse than murder and where racism is an everyday fact of life.

However, while the film certainly had a lot of strong moments it all felt almost a little too neat to me. I constantly had the sense that many elements where written to act as an explication of the films pre-established dichotomy. Indeed some scenes come along more like the checking off some moral point on the way to the films conclusion. It just didn't feel like an organic story. I don't know, it's hard to put my finger on it.

It's elevated by some excellent performances (De Niro in particular), but for whatever reason it just never quite captivated me despite it's stellar reputation.

 

[Bullitt68]

A Bronx Tale (1993)

A decent, largely by-the-numbers gangster film. It makes effective use of a very tight script - a young Bronx kid torn between the conflicting tensions of his fathers working class values and the allure of the local Mafia with all the wealth and respect that it brings. We are given an extremely vivid depiction of this close-knit Bronx neighborhood in which talking to the police is a crime worse than murder and where racism is an everyday fact of life.

However, while the film certainly had a lot of strong moments it all felt almost a little too neat to me. I constantly had the sense that many elements where written to act as an explication of the films pre-established dichotomy. Indeed some scenes come along more like the checking off some moral point on the way to the films conclusion. It just didn't feel like an organic story. I don't know, it's hard to put my finger on it.

It's elevated by some excellent performances (De Niro in particular), but for whatever reason it just never quite captivated me despite it's stellar reputation.

It seems like I have a higher opinion of this film than you do, yet we have pretty similar assessments. The thing that has always separated A Bronx Tale from stuff like The Godfather/The Godfather II, Once Upon a Time in America, Goodfellas, Casino, etc., is that while those GOAT mafia films are great films A Bronx Tale is a good film with some great moments. There are some moments - the iconic bar fight, the scene that picture is from, the "three great ones" scene with the door test, and the funeral scene - that are legit great, more than worthy of being discussed alongside scenes like the restaurant shooting in The Godfather, the Fanucci killing in The Godfather II, the "How am I funny?" scene from Goodfellas. But when you step back from the isolated moments and assess the films overall, A Bronx Tale just isn't first string. That's nothing to be ashamed of - it's clearly at the head of the pack with respect to other B-team stuff like Scarface, The Untouchables, Donnie Brasco, Miller's Crossing, etc. - but it's not on the same level as the GOAT mob movies.

All of that said, how about some bonus points for De Niro stepping up to the plate for his directorial debut? The Good Shepherd proved that he should've gone the Charles Laughton route and contented himself with the one film that he seemed to have to make. But even so, A Bronx Tale is even more impressive when you consider that it's De Niro sitting in the director's chair for the first time.

 

[Bullitt68]

Hey @Rimbaud82, if I've asked you this before my apologies but have you seen stuff from Kon Ichikawa? I'm getting pretty obsessed with him. It's frustrating as fuck that I can only get my hands on like 10 of his movies, but I've loved everything I've seen. I've loved The Burmese Harp and Fires on the Plain for years - although teaching them in some of my classes over the past year has made me appreciate Fires on the Plain so much more, it's like Straw Dogs in that it's painful and brutal and yet weirdly beautiful for how uncompromising it is - but now having seen stuff like Conflagration, Odd Obsession, and An Actor's Revenge I'm seriously digging Ichikawa. You'll recall that I'm no Ozu fanboy. As far as I'm concerned, the Olympic pedestal of film for Japan is Kurosawa, Mizoguchi, and Ichikawa. But after going through Mizoguchi's films last year I'm thinking I might like Ichikawa even more. I think that my Japanese filmmaker ranking is now Kurosawa at #1 and Ichikawa at #2 with Mizoguchi now wearing the bronze on that pedestal.

This week I also hung out with my cousin who is not only a big film buff but also a big Japanophile. He doesn't just love all things Yakuza, from movies to video games, he's even learning Japanese at college. He's been wanting to watch the Seijun Suzuki films that are on Criterion (I let him use my subscription) so when we were hanging out we watched Tokyo Drifter. That's a trippy movie. It's not hard to see its influence on John Woo's The Killer and Jim Jarmusch's Ghost Dog, but I was particularly struck by how influential Ichikawa - particularly what was at the time his recent film An Actor's Revenge - must have been on the filmmakers working at the tail end of the Japanese New Wave, especially Suzuki.

I wasn't particularly enamored with Tokyo Drifter, but it was a very cool concept and I did get a kick out of the gigantic brawl between the Japanese and the Americans in an American-style bar called "Saloon Western" which was an over-the-top spoof of old Western movies

Now I've got some shit to tie-off before I can enjoy a little winter break (after which I'll be hitting the ground running in January teaching as of this post 7 classes at 4 different institutions!) but I'm definitely going to try to pop in here sometime in the next few weeks to post about some of the stuff that I've been watching and some of the fun stuff that I've learned from teaching my classes this term.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Hey @Rimbaud82, if I've asked you this before my apologies but have you seen stuff from Kon Ichikawa? I'm getting pretty obsessed with him. It's frustrating as fuck that I can only get my hands on like 10 of his movies, but I've loved everything I've seen. I've loved The Burmese Harp and Fires on the Plain for years - although teaching them in some of my classes over the past year has made me appreciate Fires on the Plain so much more, it's like Straw Dogs in that it's painful and brutal and yet weirdly beautiful for how uncompromising it is - but now having seen stuff like Conflagration, Odd Obsession, and An Actor's Revenge I'm seriously digging Ichikawa. You'll recall that I'm no Ozu fanboy. As far as I'm concerned, the Olympic pedestal of film for Japan is Kurosawa, Mizoguchi, and Ichikawa. But after going through Mizoguchi's films last year I'm thinking I might like Ichikawa even more. I think that my Japanese filmmaker ranking is now Kurosawa at #1 and Ichikawa at #2 with Mizoguchi now wearing the bronze on that pedestal.

This week I also hung out with my cousin who is not only a big film buff but also a big Japanophile. He doesn't just love all things Yakuza, from movies to video games, he's even learning Japanese at college. He's been wanting to watch the Seijun Suzuki films that are on Criterion (I let him use my subscription) so when we were hanging out we watched Tokyo Drifter. That's a trippy movie. It's not hard to see its influence on John Woo's The Killer and Jim Jarmusch's Ghost Dog, but I was particularly struck by how influential Ichikawa - particularly what was at the time his recent film An Actor's Revenge - must have been on the filmmakers working at the tail end of the Japanese New Wave, especially Suzuki.

I wasn't particularly enamored with Tokyo Drifter, but it was a very cool concept and I did get a kick out of the gigantic brawl between the Japanese and the Americans in an American-style bar called "Saloon Western" which was an over-the-top spoof of old Western movies

Now I've got some shit to tie-off before I can enjoy a little winter break (after which I'll be hitting the ground running in January teaching as of this post 7 classes at 4 different institutions!) but I'm definitely going to try to pop in here sometime in the next few weeks to post about some of the stuff that I've been watching and some of the fun stuff that I've learned from teaching my classes this term.

I have only seen The Burmese Harp, but I absolutely loved that film! And funny I noticed An Actors Revenge is on the BFI Player on Amazon and was thinking of watching it soon.

 

[Bullitt68]

I have only seen The Burmese Harp, but I absolutely loved that film! And funny I noticed An Actors Revenge is on the BFI Player on Amazon and was thinking of watching it soon.

Speaking of, how is the BFI Player? For only £4.99 a month, it seems like a no-brainer, but I haven't followed up on it. I've seen it advertised every once in a while but I don't recall it being much of a thing until after I left the UK and came back to the US. Since deciding on a whim last year during my first film history class to include a week on British movies I've been determined to see more British films but Criterion really sucks on that front. Is the BFI Player a massive resource like Criterion only with more British films? If so, I might have to see about spending more of my money earned from teaching movies on watching more movies

Anyway, on the Ichikawa front I'd definitely recommend Fires on the Plain - it's the dark side of the same coin for which The Burmese Harp is the light side - and An Actor's Revenge. The latter is more characteristic of Ichikawa as a filmmaker - it's got his unique combination of sincere and powerful emotions on the one hand and black humor and devastating irony on the other, not to mention his compositional mastery taken to the graphic extreme at which his love of Disney and manga shines brightly through virtually every frame - but it's also quite odd. Not to mention it carries with it both the general legacy of onnagata and the specific legacy of Kazuo Hasegawa, a legendary onnagata and the star of the original 1935 film of which Ichikawa's film is a remake.

But so long as you have that context, it's an absolute blast to watch. Hasegawa is phenomenal, the plot unfolds like a darker and meaner version of the similarly plotted Odd Obsession, and seeing Ichikawa's extraordinary visual flair here working not just with widescreen but with color is quite the sensory treat.

If you do check it out, please post a review in here.

 

[fingercuffs]

Just watched The Outsiders for the first time in maybe 30 years, still love it. It was my favourite childhood book.

 

[Bullitt68]

Just watched The Outsiders for the first time in maybe 30 years, still love it. It was my favourite childhood book.

Wow. When I returned to that movie - both a favorite childhood book AND movie for me, to the point where in seventh grade one of my classes read the book and watched the movie and everyone loved it so much that like half a dozen people signed my yearbook that year telling me to "stay gold" - it was almost unwatchable. In purely cinematic terms, it's a terrible movie and an even worse adaptation. Not to mention Matt Dillon turns in quite possibly the worst acting performance in the history of cinema. His "We'll do it for Johnny!" scene is more painful for me to watch than Brad Pitt's "What's in the box?" scene from Seven. Absolutely atrocious. Now, having said all of that, I still love The Outsiders, too. But it's pure nostalgia for me. I don't actually think the movie is very good.

Anyway, lest I totally kill your buzz, did you see Rob Lowe on Joe Rogan's podcast? He talked about filming The Outsiders.

 

[fingercuffs]

Wow. When I returned to that movie - both a favorite childhood book AND movie for me, to the point where in seventh grade one of my classes read the book and watched the movie and everyone loved it so much that like half a dozen people signed my yearbook that year telling me to "stay gold" - it was almost unwatchable. In purely cinematic terms, it's a terrible movie and an even worse adaptation. Not to mention Matt Dillon turns in quite possibly the worst acting performance in the history of cinema. His "We'll do it for Johnny!" scene is more painful for me to watch than Brad Pitt's "What's in the box?" scene from Seven. Absolutely atrocious. Now, having said all of that, I still love The Outsiders, too. But it's pure nostalgia for me. I don't actually think the movie is very good.

Anyway, lest I totally kill your buzz, did you see Rob Lowe on Joe Rogan's podcast? He talked about filming The Outsiders.

Oh my gosh, that really tugged on the heartstrings @Bullitt68. I loved it. Husband hasn't read it before but bought us a couple of them recently so we could read recently but we haven't got around to it since I started working again.
Amazing book to read as a kid. The best. It was that after I grew out of Enid Blyton. He hasn't seen Rumblefish so thaat'll be next on the SE Hinton list.

 

[ufcfan4]

I love Amadeus.
I legit can't compregend anyone finding that Film boring.

Don't forget that the Film is told through Salieri's perspective, so it's no surprise that Mozart is portrayed even more childish than from the historical perspective.


If you're looking for boring, underserved 80s Oscar winners there's still the piece of shit that is Out of Africa

And I think it's pretty widely recognized that Out of Africa WAS a weak a best picture winner. You tend to see a lot of reviews that are like- it looks great, but...

I think Pollack was awesome enough though that I'll allow it if it got him his Oscar. But Tootsie, a movie he made a few years before it was so much better and way more entertaining.

I stand by Gandhi as a really good movie though. I think Kingsley and Attenborough deliver. Kingsley is epic in that movie.

Having just watched The Elephant Man, I can say 1980 was a strong year as far as awards nominated films go. Raging Bull, The Elephant Man, and Ordinary People alone- three classics in my opinion.

 

[ufcfan4]

I'm going to go ahead and say it, Scorsese's opinions on horror movies seem to come from the parts of his brain that were atrophied by all that 80's cocaine. He also called notorious wacko-picture Excorcist 2 better then the original. It was more then a decade since I saw Created Woman, but damned if I were to believe that it's metaphysical subtext could ever be described as "sublime".

But at least he didn't pick the sequel Frankenstein Must be Destroyed where Dr Frankenstein turns into a rapist out of nowhere.<45>

Exorcist 2 the better movie? That's like saying Psycho 2 is better than Hitch's original.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Speaking of, how is the BFI Player? For only £4.99 a month, it seems like a no-brainer, but I haven't followed up on it. I've seen it advertised every once in a while but I don't recall it being much of a thing until after I left the UK and came back to the US. Since deciding on a whim last year during my first film history class to include a week on British movies I've been determined to see more British films but Criterion really sucks on that front. Is the BFI Player a massive resource like Criterion only with more British films? If so, I might have to see about spending more of my money earned from teaching movies on watching more movies

Totally forgot to reply to this mate.

I have the BFI Player through Amazon Prime rather than directly through the app, so not sure if the catalogue differs as a result but it's a pretty good resource. It's not just British films, as a good mix of European arthouse stuff as well as a lot of Japanese films actually. Definitely worth the money imo.

Anyway, on the Ichikawa front I'd definitely recommend Fires on the Plain - it's the dark side of the same coin for which The Burmese Harp is the light side - and An Actor's Revenge. The latter is more characteristic of Ichikawa as a filmmaker - it's got his unique combination of sincere and powerful emotions on the one hand and black humor and devastating irony on the other, not to mention his compositional mastery taken to the graphic extreme at which his love of Disney and manga shines brightly through virtually every frame - but it's also quite odd. Not to mention it carries with it both the general legacy of onnagata and the specific legacy of Kazuo Hasegawa, a legendary onnagata and the star of the original 1935 film of which Ichikawa's film is a remake.

But so long as you have that context, it's an absolute blast to watch. Hasegawa is phenomenal, the plot unfolds like a darker and meaner version of the similarly plotted Odd Obsession, and seeing Ichikawa's extraordinary visual flair here working not just with widescreen but with color is quite the sensory treat.

If you do check it out, please post a review in here.

I will definitely check it out sometime when I am in the notion, and of course I post pretty much all my reviews in here