Elections ***Second Democratic Primary Debate play-by-play thread: Night 1. ***

[AndroidRage]

No. The drug companies aren't selling their products at a loss in other countries. Prices are raised in the U.S. because they can. Drug companies can't charge an arm and a leg in Canada for, say, Insulin, because the Canadian government is a monopsony and thus controls the price. The drug companies still want access to the 3 million diabetics living in Canada. If they were forced to sell at a loss, they would just not do it. You guys are just getting buttfucked.

Look at that. Common sense rearing its ugly head again!

 

[AndroidRage]

Exactly -- they have medical care for all but not medicare for all. Their systems are amazing and make the US' system look downright evil and cost much less -- I would know; I'm living in one in Asia right now. I get full medical care and dental for $50 a month, and $50 a month from my employer. Similar systems are the norm worldwide. Medicare for all is just a soundbite because it sounds easy to understand and it's 3 words long. It's a disastrous policy.

Huh? Medicare for all is literally taking an already existing program and expanding it to all US citizens. I am tired, so if I am missing out on sarcasm here I apologize.

 

[Rational Poster]

From everything I could find it looks like it took just 1 year to get medicare going. You may be mistaking when the term medicare was first attached to a bill that was passed by Eisenhower that was just for Military families. Medicare as we know it today was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson in 1965 and started in 66. I saw nothing about there being delays from state to state but if you could find something stating that I would love to read it to learn why that was.

Not sure what the fuck the Nazis and WW 2 have to do with providing healthcare to all citizens. We live in a democracy. We can pass laws and change things just as easily. I don't know why you think a war torn country can do anything at all easier than a country that is thriving.

And if other countries do greatly benefit from us paying so much more than it would be great to have single payer sort that out. That burden should be spread across multiple countries instead of just Americans. Our Government could then negotiate a lower price for us and these companies can then raise prices elsewhere to balance things out. But I am pretty sure that's a bunch of bull shit. Even if it were true, m4a would still be the best solution.

Here, let me dumb it down a bit.

You know Jenga, right?

How do you play Jenga?

 

[superpunch]

From everything I could find it looks like it took just 1 year to get medicare going. You may be mistaking when the term medicare was first attached to a bill that was passed by Eisenhower that was just for Military families. Medicare as we know it today was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson in 1965 and started in 66. I saw nothing about there being delays from state to state but if you could find something stating that I would love to read it to learn why that was.

Not sure what the fuck the Nazis and WW 2 have to do with providing healthcare to all citizens. We live in a democracy. We can pass laws and change things just as easily. I don't know why you think a war torn country can do anything at all easier than a country that is thriving.

And if other countries do greatly benefit from us paying so much more than it would be great to have single payer sort that out. That burden should be spread across multiple countries instead of just Americans. Our Government could then negotiate a lower price for us and these companies can then raise prices elsewhere to balance things out. But I am pretty sure that's a bunch of bull shit. Even if it were true, m4a would still be the best solution.

It's an atrocity but healthcare is ~18% of our economy. Getting it down to what the rest of the world spends would mean a 10% contraction in GDP. That has to be managed delicately and over a longer timespan than 1-4 years. To put that in perspective, the global drop in GDP was 15% during the Great Depression and ~1% during 2008. You're knocking out Great Depression sized chunks of the economy if you do the right thing. It needs to be done but it needs to be much more thought out than just "medicare for all durrrr!".

 

[superpunch]

Huh? Medicare for all is literally taking an already existing program and expanding it to all US citizens. I am tired, so if I am missing out on sarcasm here I apologize.

Medicare is garbage and expensive. We already spend more government money on healthcare per capita than any universal healthcare system in the world except Norway just providing medicare to some. Medicare for all would be nuts. Less nutty than what we have now but still nuts. It's not a democratic policy platform because it's good policy. It's a policy platform because it's easy to understand and it's only 3 words long.

 

[AndroidRage]

Here, let me dumb it down a bit.

You know Jenga, right?

How do you play Jenga?

So rebuilding a whole fucking government from the ground up is easier than passing some bills? Lmao ok

 

[AndroidRage]

Medicare is garbage and expensive. We already spend more government money on healthcare per capita than any universal healthcare system in the world except Norway just providing medicare to some. Medicare for all would be nuts. Less nutty than what we have now but still nuts. It's not a democratic policy platform because it's good policy. It's a policy platform because it's easy to understand and it's only 3 words long.

We pay more because of private insurance. Not because of Medicare. Medicare is much more efficient than private health care while not having the benefits that a m4a would have. Which would be much greater bargaining power. Like they have in other countries with single payer.

 

[Rational Poster]

So rebuilding a whole fucking government from the ground up is easier than passing some bills? Lmao ok

No, what I'm saying is you're advocating for playing Jenga incorrectly... by knocking out a large percentage of the tower without any actual plan to replace those pieces. A transition to this type of system needs to be done carefully and thoughtfully over decades, not even two Presidential terms is close enough to the kind of overhaul the system would need. One piece at time removed and restacked to the top.

And yes.... it's incredibly easier to build a Jenga tower that's already tumbled to the floor compared to taking one piece out at a time.

 

[superpunch]

So rebuilding a whole fucking government from the ground up is easier than passing some bills? Lmao ok

I like his Jenga reference. Removing the wrong blocks at the wrong times can cause the whole tower to collapse. You need to carefully analyze what blocks you take out and when. Postwar countries had nothing -- no "tower" -- so they didn't have to worry about collapsing anything when building new systems. They weren't "taking out blocks". Healthcare is 1/5 of our economy right now.. take out the wrong blocks at the wrong time and you will cause a Great Depression.

 

[Fawlty]

What a shit show.

These Kamikaze 2%er candidates are really getting on my nerves.

DNC is throwing this so far.

I mean for real.. they have these literal no ones up there blowing major holes in their front runners platforms for no reason.

But but the eStAbLiShMeNt.

Yeah the DNC is trying to be super fair and inclusive and right now it's getting in the way of the process. But the field will narrow significantly soon (to much wailing and gnashing of teeth and cries of conthpirathy), and it won't be so much of a problem. As long as only like 8 people meet the debate requirements...

 

[superpunch]

We pay more because of private insurance. Not because of Medicare.

That's not true at all. Completely eliminate private spending and we still spend more money than anyone in the world except Norway.

That's just medicare for some.. instead of medicare for all, why don't we copy Japan's system? It's not on the table because it's longer than 3 words.

That's the intellectual level of the democratic policy platform right now.. keep things at no longer than 3 words. it's just a little bit better than building a giant fucking wall.

 

[AndroidRage]

I like his Jenga reference. Removing the wrong blocks at the wrong times can cause the whole tower to collapse. You need to carefully analyze what blocks you take out and when. Postwar countries had nothing -- no "tower" -- so they didn't have to worry about collapsing anything when building new systems. They weren't "taking out blocks". Healthcare is 1/5 of our economy right now.. take out the wrong blocks at the wrong time and you will cause a Great Depression.

Your not taking a block out. M4A will replace health insurance. The government will then act as a health insurer. You are replacing Private Spending with government spending. GDP would go mostly unchanged.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Watching the first bit of the debate that I missed last night

Both Warren and Bernie dodged the shit out of the "Won't you offering free Healthcare to illegal immigrants just encourage more illegal immigration?"

They have no answer for this.

 

[Rational Poster]

Your not taking a block out. M4A will replace health insurance. The government will then act as a health insurer. You are replacing Private Spending with government spending. GDP would go mostly unchanged.

Holy fuck dude...

There are nearly 3 million people working in the private insurance industry alone... All told there are tens of millions involved directly or indirectly with the healthcare industry. Sure some of them may be able to score a government post.. but the vast majority are going to be SOL if efficiency is actually your goal.

What happens to all those people? What happens to the banks that hold their mortgages or their landlords? What happens to the stores they shop at? What happens to the restaurants they eat at?

These people aren't just grocery baggers or burger flippers.. they legitimately make up a plurality of all middle to upper middle class workers in America.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Holy fuck dude...

There are nearly 3 million people working in the private insurance industry alone... All told there are tens of millions involved directly or indirectly with the healthcare industry. Sure some of them may be able to score a government post.. but the vast majority are going to be SOL if efficiency is actually your goal.

What happens to all those people? What happens to the banks that hold their mortgages or their landlords? What happens to the stores they shop at? What happens to the restaurants they eat at?

These people aren't just grocery baggers or burger flippers.. they legitimately make up a plurality of all middle to upper middle class workers in America.

Undermentioned point on the Healthcare debate. Half of the current health insurance workers will go the way of coal miners with Medicare for all

Granted, that should also do a fantastic job of cutting administrative costs of Healthcare and is in one way an argument of Medicare for all, but the economy and workforce impacts are something to consider

 

[Rational Poster]

Undermentioned point on the Healthcare debate. Half of the current health insurance workers will go the way of coal miners with Medicare for all

Granted, that should also do a fantastic job of cutting administrative costs of Healthcare and is in one way an argument of Medicare for all, but the economy and workforce impacts are something to consider

Yeah, don't get it twisted. I support a transition to a more efficient health care system.

I just want it done thoughtfully and not just because it feels nice to say medicare for all.

It has actually has to been a planned out transition not an overnight revolution.

As unfortunate as it may be, the current inefficiencies in the healthcare industry are literally keeping tens of millions of Americans living comfortably.

 

[Prokofievian]

Undermentioned point on the Healthcare debate. Half of the current health insurance workers will go the way of coal miners with Medicare for all

Granted, that should also do a fantastic job of cutting administrative costs of Healthcare and is in one way an argument of Medicare for all, but the economy and workforce impacts are something to consider

Like, Americans either want that or they don't. I still read arguments about how horribly inefficient the government will be at administering health care. Now the GDP is going to catastrophically collapse because everything will be so darn efficient?

What is the narrative, actually? Which of these things is true?

 

[JonesBones]

Did a single one of them last night mention "pharmacy benefit managers"? Anyone who has seriously looked into this issue should know those three words and say them. I heard many generic statements.

 

[ocean size]

Huh? Medicare for all is literally taking an already existing program and expanding it to all US citizens. I am tired, so if I am missing out on sarcasm here I apologize.

This shit is sounding like people that are all for 'the provisions of the affordable care act' but vehemently against 'Obamacare'

 

[HockeyBjj]

Like, Americans either want that or they don't. I still read arguments about how horribly inefficient the government will be at administering health care. Now the GDP is going to catastrophically collapse because everything will be so darn efficient?

What is the narrative, actually? Which of these things is true?

I'd be of the mindset gov will F it all up. Never went into the significant gdp drop, but did find Rational's point of the number of Americans suddenly in job insecurity to be a warranted one to at least consider with whatever the plan coming in is.