Law Schindler's List should be mandatory viewing for high school and college students

[BFoe]

I don't believe a guy of your general posting habits is trying to do so, but you know that without context this is quite misleading, right? These things weren't banned for discussing the Holocaust - they were, each, banned for reasons separate from presentations of the Holocaust (nudity, extreme language, and discussion of critical race theory/social justice). Your post is a bit like if a school district banned images of Michelangelo's David due to nudity and you suggested the ban was evidence that the school district was unwilling to show Italian art.

This is not a statement that I agree with the bans. Maus, in particular, I think is a mistake (can't comment on the textbook in question and the Anne Frank one had nudity which is a no-no for certain grades whatever the topic). But making it out like any of these three cases is because they're not willing to teach about the Holocaust.

I find grade school book bans - on both sides, because both sides do it plenty - is one of the most misrepresented issues that gets turned into a political club, mainly because it's so easy to gloss over details and just say "See? SEE? The OTHER side is banning books - who's on the right side of history NOW!?!?!?!?!"

No, in a different post I explicitly discussed the reason they claimed to ban the books, and I even posted a scene from the Anne Frank graphic novel that got it banned. So there’s nothing misleading on my part at all.

These books incidentally are for middle school and above. Maus was banned in 8th grade classes FFS, this isn’t an issue of grade school bans, as you say.

The “nudity” in question in both of these banned books is so insignificant that I think it’s a laughable excuse. When I was in 7th grade, we watched a documentary on the Holocaust. This documentary included full frontal nudity, which was hardly porn or a turn on FFS, it was emaciated concentration camp victims.

And as a side note, Critical Race Theory isn’t being taught in standard K-12 curriculums anywhere in this country that I’m aware of. Don’t fall for this bs excuse.

 

[Fake Doctor]

No, in a different post I explicitly discussed the reason they claimed to ban the books, and I even posted a scene from the Anne Frank graphic novel that got it banned. So there’s nothing misleading on my part at all.

These books incidentally are for middle school and above. Maus was banned in 8th grade classes FFS, this isn’t an issue of grade school bans, as you say.

The “nudity” in question in both of these banned books is so insignificant that I think it’s a laughable excuse. When I was in 7th grade, we watched a documentary on the Holocaust. This documentary included full frontal nudity, which was hardly porn or a turn on FFS, it was emancipated concentration camp victims.

And as a side note, Critical Race Theory isn’t being taught in standard K-12 curriculums anywhere in this country that I’m aware of. Don’t fall for this bs excuse.

Nah Foe, though I like you as a poster, this just suggests to me you're compromised as shit on this issue and are letting either political leanings or some other external motivating factor cloud your judgment. I'm going to take a look back and you can explain to me where I'm getting it wrong.

First, this is the post you're responding to:

The new progressives would consider it "Jew propaganda" and "contributing to the Genocide in Palestine."

But I for the most part agree. Many don't realize just how easily it is to "other" people who may be "different" from you.

It's a generalization suggesting that "It's not going to be the Right that bans Holocaust materials, it's going to be the progressive 'woke' crowd."

Your response was this:

The new progressives would do that?
Republicans in FL banned Holocaust textbooks for being “woke.”

An illustrated Anne Frank book was as well.

Maus is being banned around the country, and it’s not progressives doing it.

Listing three books making a suggestion that "no, it's the Republicans/Righties who are banning teaching about the Holocaust." The reality is, you showed three books being banned - and yes, GRADE 8 is GRADE school - but zero evidence that there is any attempt to prevent the Holocaust being taught, just a few books with what (you and I both agree) are thin reasoning.

I will openly admit that many on the Right are nutzoid puritans who take things too far and are banning some very good material they should not be touching. That said, I simply don't see serious evidence there is any attempt by the political Right to stop teaching about the holocaust, just that they're weirdos who get offended by a few boobs, sexualization, and bad words. Also, just to reinforce the point, and since Florida and DeSantis feature heavily in here, it's outright silly to suggest that Florida/DeSantis are trying to not give the Holocaust a solid treatment in the education system. Quite the opposite - they're enshrining it in the education system:

"Florida has required that students be taught about the Holocaust since 1994, but there had been no standards detailing what specifically should be covered and in what grade. The new standards aim to provide that blueprint.

“We want to make sure our students understand the evils of the Holocaust. You see people throughout the world try to diminish or even reject that the Holocaust even happened,” DeSantis said, reported the Orlando Sentinel.

The new standards come amid a growing push among U.S. states to address rising anti-Semitism and awareness about the Holocaust. Nearly two-dozen states now require Holocaust education as part of their secondary-school curricula, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Much of these new requirements have emerged in the last several years."

Florida makes strides in Holocaust education after new standards prioritize source material

“We rely heavily on primary-source documents, firsthand accounts, survivor testimony, eyewitness reports at the time photographs taken at the time,” said teacher Rachel Pignato. “We don’t want to really rely on some other person’s perspective of what happened. We want to hear from the people who...

www.jns.org

To be frank though, I don't see any evidence that the "woke" crowd is trying to outright ban teaching about the Holocaust, so I don't think Munny's comment is to be taken seriously - but, unlike yours, it just looks like an offhand comment.

I might be totally misreading you, and feel free to point out where I am - I can even see some points where I might be. If you're suggesting that the Right, particularly DeSantis and Florida, are in any way preventing the Holocaust from being taught, you're going to have to make a case for it well beyond what you're making. And just to be clear, I'm more than happy to be very critical of DeSantis, and I do not want him becoming the US president, but I just see this "Ohhh, the scary Meatball man is going to stop kids from learning about the Holocaust!" to be a spurious case.

 

[William Munny]

Nah Foe, though I like you as a poster, this just suggests to me you're compromised as shit on this issue and are letting either political leanings or some other external motivating factor cloud your judgment. I'm going to take a look back and you can explain to me where I'm getting it wrong.

First, this is the post you're responding to:


It's a generalization suggesting that "It's not going to be the Right that bans Holocaust materials, it's going to be the progressive 'woke' crowd."

Your response was this:



Listing three books making a suggestion that "no, it's the Republicans/Righties who are banning teaching about the Holocaust." The reality is, you showed three books being banned - and yes, GRADE 8 is GRADE school - but zero evidence that there is any attempt to prevent the Holocaust being taught, just a few books with what (you and I both agree) are thin reasoning.

I will openly admit that many on the Right are nutzoid puritans who take things too far and are banning some very good material they should not be touching. That said, I simply don't see serious evidence there is any attempt by the political Right to stop teaching about the holocaust, just that they're weirdos who get offended by a few boobs, sexualization, and bad words. Also, just to reinforce the point, and since Florida and DeSantis feature heavily in here, it's outright silly to suggest that Florida/DeSantis are trying to not give the Holocaust a solid treatment in the education system. Quite the opposite - they're enshrining it in the education system:

"Florida has required that students be taught about the Holocaust since 1994, but there had been no standards detailing what specifically should be covered and in what grade. The new standards aim to provide that blueprint.

“We want to make sure our students understand the evils of the Holocaust. You see people throughout the world try to diminish or even reject that the Holocaust even happened,” DeSantis said, reported the Orlando Sentinel.

The new standards come amid a growing push among U.S. states to address rising anti-Semitism and awareness about the Holocaust. Nearly two-dozen states now require Holocaust education as part of their secondary-school curricula, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Much of these new requirements have emerged in the last several years."

Florida makes strides in Holocaust education after new standards prioritize source material

“We rely heavily on primary-source documents, firsthand accounts, survivor testimony, eyewitness reports at the time photographs taken at the time,” said teacher Rachel Pignato. “We don’t want to really rely on some other person’s perspective of what happened. We want to hear from the people who...

www.jns.org

To be frank though, I don't see any evidence that the "woke" crowd is trying to outright ban teaching about the Holocaust, so I don't think Munny's comment is to be taken seriously - but, unlike yours, it just looks like an offhand comment.

I might be totally misreading you, and feel free to point out where I am - I can even see some points where I might be. If you're suggesting that the Right, particularly DeSantis and Florida, are in any way preventing the Holocaust from being taught, you're going to have to make a case for it well beyond what you're making. And just to be clear, I'm more than happy to be very critical of DeSantis, and I do not want him becoming the US president, but I just see this "Ohhh, the scary Meatball man is going to stop kids from learning about the Holocaust!" to be a spurious case.

10/10 post here.

lol, at these guys equating three books somewhere that are under review being worse than how progressive trash are treating Jews all across the country.

do these simpletons even watch the News?

 

[Fake Doctor]

10/10 post here.

lol, at these guys equating three books somewhere that are under review being worse than how progressive trash are treating Jews all across the country.

do these simpletons even watch the News?

I kind of look at it like this... Historically, the Right has had a problem with anti-Semitism - and, to be frank, still does. That far-right, anti-Semitic block is part of the Right's (in the US, and somewhat more broadly) voting block and this cannot be ignored. The thing is, it has effectively been pushed to the edge of the American Right's primary party (Republican) so that, while it is part of their coalition of voters, it gets next to no traction in the party which is almost dogmatically pro-Israel. This is the result of a long, long awareness that anti-Semitism is a problem on the Right - so they've learned to deal with it and keep it in relative check.

By contrast, the political Left hasn't had an astounding anti-Semitism problem that has manifested in the same way. That has changed with the focus on oppressed groups because that Left oriented political block has been giving new groups tremendous power within its structure - but those groups, largely Muslims, have zero qualms with being anti-Semitic to the extent that we haven't seen in the West since the 1930's. What this has led to is the incentive structure on the traditional, not anti-Semitic left to basically pander to the new quite anti-Semitic left in order to maintain its more broad ideological framing of who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. This leads to a traditionally not particularly anti-Semitic political group trying to walk a fine line by pandering to anti-Semites while still trying to position themselves as the party against anti-Semitism.

Basically, anti-Semitism exists prominently in almost every part of the world outside of Asia (don't think they really give a shit?), and because it has always been known to exist on the Right, the Right has built up a sort of immune system to it. The Left though? They're all of the sudden hit by it like it was a fever - and we'll see if it eats them up or they build their own political immune system to it. This is breaking a lot of peoples' brains.

Edit: Side note... As to the thread's topic, I don't think Schindler's list should be mandatory viewing in school. Just teach people the history.

 

[BFoe]

Nah Foe, though I like you as a poster, this just suggests to me you're compromised as shit on this issue and are letting either political leanings or some other external motivating factor cloud your judgment. I'm going to take a look back and you can explain to me where I'm getting it wrong.

First, this is the post you're responding to:


It's a generalization suggesting that "It's not going to be the Right that bans Holocaust materials, it's going to be the progressive 'woke' crowd."

Your response was this:



Listing three books making a suggestion that "no, it's the Republicans/Righties who are banning teaching about the Holocaust." The reality is, you showed three books being banned - and yes, GRADE 8 is GRADE school - but zero evidence that there is any attempt to prevent the Holocaust being taught, just a few books with what (you and I both agree) are thin reasoning.

I will openly admit that many on the Right are nutzoid puritans who take things too far and are banning some very good material they should not be touching. That said, I simply don't see serious evidence there is any attempt by the political Right to stop teaching about the holocaust, just that they're weirdos who get offended by a few boobs, sexualization, and bad words. Also, just to reinforce the point, and since Florida and DeSantis feature heavily in here, it's outright silly to suggest that Florida/DeSantis are trying to not give the Holocaust a solid treatment in the education system. Quite the opposite - they're enshrining it in the education system:

"Florida has required that students be taught about the Holocaust since 1994, but there had been no standards detailing what specifically should be covered and in what grade. The new standards aim to provide that blueprint.

“We want to make sure our students understand the evils of the Holocaust. You see people throughout the world try to diminish or even reject that the Holocaust even happened,” DeSantis said, reported the Orlando Sentinel.

The new standards come amid a growing push among U.S. states to address rising anti-Semitism and awareness about the Holocaust. Nearly two-dozen states now require Holocaust education as part of their secondary-school curricula, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Much of these new requirements have emerged in the last several years."

Florida makes strides in Holocaust education after new standards prioritize source material

“We rely heavily on primary-source documents, firsthand accounts, survivor testimony, eyewitness reports at the time photographs taken at the time,” said teacher Rachel Pignato. “We don’t want to really rely on some other person’s perspective of what happened. We want to hear from the people who...

www.jns.org

To be frank though, I don't see any evidence that the "woke" crowd is trying to outright ban teaching about the Holocaust, so I don't think Munny's comment is to be taken seriously - but, unlike yours, it just looks like an offhand comment.

I might be totally misreading you, and feel free to point out where I am - I can even see some points where I might be. If you're suggesting that the Right, particularly DeSantis and Florida, are in any way preventing the Holocaust from being taught, you're going to have to make a case for it well beyond what you're making. And just to be clear, I'm more than happy to be very critical of DeSantis, and I do not want him becoming the US president, but I just see this "Ohhh, the scary Meatball man is going to stop kids from learning about the Holocaust!" to be a spurious case.

Yes I think you’re misreading me, and yes, I’ll point out where.

1. This thread is about making Schindler’s List mandatory viewing for high school and college.

2. A poster made a dumb comment that liberals/progressives would probably oppose it.

3. I pointed out—rightly—that there are opposition and bans of this sort going on, but it’s the Right that is doing it. I gave 3 separate examples, which I sourced, to demonstrate my point.

At no point in time did I ever make the claim that the Holocaust isn’t being taught in any way at all—that’s a viewpoint you ascribed to me. The fact is that if Holocaust-related material were to be banned in some school or classroom in this country, it is far more likely to be the Right that does it.

So, yes: if a school was banning Michaelangelo’s David for 8th graders—in most places in the US these are junior high school students btw, students who have already had sex ed, students who the very next year will be in high school—I would absolutely condemn that puritanical bullshit and oppose it. I would not however claim that was equivalent to not teaching anything about the entire subject of Italian art, but I would certainly criticize the way in which Italian art was being taught.

And there’s a lot of reasons to criticize the way it’s being taught, in all kinds of red states. I’m interested to see exactly what teaching about the Holocaust in FL looks like under their new “don’t teach history in a way that makes anyone uncomfortable” framework. This has already been an issue in New Hampshire: FL’s own Task Force On Holocaust Education spoke out against FL’s new standards, saying they didn’t provide a “broader understanding of where all group-based hatreds can lead” and omits “core concepts such as diversity empathy, responsibility, and fairness.” There’s this genius school administrator in a TX district that instructed teachers that if they teach about the Holocaust, they also need to teach “opposing views.” A Missouri district banned a whole slew of Holocaust books. I could list more. There absolutely is evidence that the way they‘re teaching the Holocaust is deeply troubling. They don’t get a pass on this because some of their evangelical wing are supporting Israel for their own reasons.

 

[KeepingItReal]

If a movie is good, it doesn't need to be made mandatory, people will anyway watch it.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Not really.

Better to show the actual films the Nazi's made and the films they made when they liberated the camps.

That along with all the photos they made when they were doing medical and other test.

All the unedited stuff.

I got a feeling they refuse to stay and see them because it would "upset" them too much.

We were shown old black and white docs and photos of multiple concentration camps along with Schindler’s List

Another hero who doesn’t get as much recognition is Japan’s Chiune (Sempo) Sugihara.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Schindler's list is a very accurate historical drama about what the Jewish people went through during WW2. It's only a small glimpse of the horrors of Nazi Germany. I think it should be mandatory viewing for all high schoolers and college students. With the rise of anti-semitism, especially among people of color around the country, I think this should help quite a bit with understanding the plight of Jewish people, which really have been the most oppressed people in the history of humanity.

I just watched it for the first time in over 20 years and it's the most hard hitting movie I've ever seen. My art teacher in high school made us watch it, but we didnt get to finish. It was the final days of high school and I guess they let them get away with whatever during that time. With all this rise in anti semitism, I remembered the movie and decided to watch it in its entirety.

The white majority in this country is dwindling rapidly, and the massive influx of migrants is making it even faster. For some reason, black and brown people are not sypmathetic towards Jews as whites are. The migrants know very, very little about what happened to them in Nazi Germany. If we make this movie a mandatory watch, I thnik it will help a lot.

Add this one to0:

 

[OneOfOne]

The more I think about the more I don't support showing dramatic films and footage to high school students about the Holocaust. The only purpose in doing so would be to make an emotional and psychological impact on young people that forever alters and colors their perception of this topic. This of course results in people being extra sensitive, careful, and even fearful regarding anything having to do with Jewish people. This works as a mind control mechanism that makes it impossible for people to approach any issues involving Jewish people or the state of Israel objectively. It allows for people and whole societies to be silenced and controlled through accusations of antisemitism. You see a similar phenomenon with education regarding the slave trade and how that complicates our ability to discuss or deal with race issues. We're all held hostage by fear of being called a racist. Were all hyperfixated on fears of oppression and discrimination.

Its fine to teach about the Holocaust the same as you would teach about the Holdomor, the Chinese Revolution, Native Americans, ect. But we dont need to give young people a psychological complex concerning these events by showing them emotionally charged films or dramatic and shocking footage of the Holocaust. Just teach them what happened and move on.

 

[freakroor]

If a movie is good, it doesn't need to be made mandatory, people will anyway watch it.

then why have so many people not seen Citizen Kane?

 

[ferrisjso]

then why have so many people not seen Citizen Kane?

There is a certain subsection of people(probably a majority) who wont watch black and white movies. Same as those who won't watch animation.

 

[ferrisjso]

The new progressives would consider it "Jew propaganda" and "contributing to the Genocide in Palestine."

But I for the most part agree. Many don't realize just how easily it is to "other" people who may be "different" from you.

A pro palestine person would watch Schindlers list and come away even more motivated to stop the genocide. Like I don't know what the pro Israeli people think the propaganda value of such a film is for their side. Do they expect someone whose anti Israeli to watch it and conflate the Palestinians with the Germans?

 

[Spam On Rye]

Nothing wrong with teaching history but you'd think that the only atrocities in the 20th century happened to the Jews. I wonder if there are any Gulag museums in the US?

 

[KeepingItReal]

then why have so many people not seen Citizen Kane?

Because it's obviously not a good movie, duh.

 

[Ramon Antonio]

The more I think about the more I don't support showing dramatic films and footage to high school students about the Holocaust. The only purpose in doing so would be to make an emotional and psychological impact on young people that forever alters and colors their perception of this topic. This of course results in people being extra sensitive, careful, and even fearful regarding anything having to do with Jewish people. This works as a mind control mechanism that makes it impossible for people to approach any issues involving Jewish people or the state of Israel objectively. It allows for people and whole societies to be silenced and controlled through accusations of antisemitism. You see a similar phenomenon with education regarding the slave trade and how that complicates our ability to discuss or deal with race issues. We're all held hostage by fear of being called a racist. Were all hyperfixated on fears of oppression and discrimination.

It’s fine to teach about the Holocaust the same as you would teach about the Holdomor, the Chinese Revolution, Native Americans, ect. But we dont need to give young people a psychological complex concerning these events by showing them emotionally charged films or dramatic and shocking footage of the Holocaust. Just teach them what happened and move on.

As a European this sentiment is very weird to me. My school literally made us visit a concentration/death camp when we were about 15. I am glad they did. No sugar coating either. It’s a profound experience and IMO a much better way to learn about history than to just read stuff from a book.

 

[Zazen]

Add this one to0:

Is that the movie where they fed a real cat to a bunch of starving rats? Fuck that…. I can’t get behind a move that does that stuff. I know the Japanese are evil but why harm innocent animals for a film? Just stupid

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Is that the movie where they fed a real cat to a bunch of starving rats? Fuck that…. I can’t get behind a move that does that stuff. I know the Japanese are evil but why harm innocent animals for a film? Just stupid

No cat, but the show a bunch of the real photos. Pretty gut wrenching, theAtrocities

 

[djacobox372]

Nothing wrong with teaching history but you'd think that the only atrocities in the 20th century happened to the Jews. I wonder if there are any Gulag museums in the US?

Gulags killed about 1.7 million over 20+ years... horrible, but not nearly at the same level.... yet I still learned about it in high school, my 10th grade English teacher even had us read a novel written by someone who survive a gulag.

 

[OneOfOne]

As a European this sentiment is very weird to me. My school literally made us visit a concentration/death camp when we were about 15. I am glad they did. No sugar coating either. It’s a profound experience and IMO a much better way to learn about history than to just read stuff from a book.

Yes but you didn't address the reasons I gave as to why it can be problematic.

 

[Spam On Rye]

Gulags killed about 1.7 million over 20+ years... horrible, but not nearly at the same level.... yet I still learned about it in high school, my 10th grade English teacher even had us read a novel written by someone who survive a gulag.

I get what you're saying but maybe I wasn't being clear enough. I'm talking about the Soviet Revolution with the Archipelagos being the culmination of ideological fervor. Lenin-Stalin killed anywhere from 40 to 150 million. Both were horrific yet only one is forgotten in the west.