Sambo thread!

[Gabicho]

since landing on the hands and knees and getring pushed out yield no score the athlete always has a bailout option and that hurts the sport but its way better than any other lapel grappling Style ESPECIALLY the IJF Judo we see today!

create a giless version and add a 1 point step out and I'm pretty sure you've got the ultimate MMA/ self-defense crossover grappling sport, I think sambo has a good future in the United States especially with the rising dominance of Russian mixed martial arts competitors a la what gracie bjj did for the sport of BJJ

im supprised sport sambo dosent allow chokes...thats a massive problem for crossover but at least they are part of the ultimate curriculum

Maybe I didn't make myself clear: athletes do get penalized for leaving the mat. It displays timidity and passitivy. Do it 3 times, it's a DQ.
Landing on the hands and knees also will be penalized if it's not an acrobatic escape and only a stalling or purely defensive manouver. Same, 3 penalties it's a dq.
I can't say I've seen the situations you cite happen in the last 20 or 30 tournaments I've been to, or at least not as a situation that wasn't solved by proper refereeing so I wouldn't say it's a problem or something that needs to be changed. If its not broken...

I agree that chokes should be allowed in sport Sambo. They were removed to differentiate it from judo (so they say), but they are already having test competitions where they are allowed.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear: athletes do get penalized for leaving the mat. It displays timidity and passitivy. Do it 3 times, it's a DQ.
Landing on the hands and knees also will be penalized if it's not an acrobatic escape and only a stalling or purely defensive manouver. Same, 3 penalties it's a dq.
I can't say I've seen the situations you cite happen in the last 20 or 30 tournaments I've been to, or at least not as a situation that wasn't solved by proper refereeing so I wouldn't say it's a problem or something that needs to be changed. If its not broken...

I agree that chokes should be allowed in sport Sambo. They were removed to differentiate it from judo (so they say), but they are already having test competitions where they are allowed.

Athletes definitely do not get penalized for stepping out of the mat area in the competition I'm watching...they get a reset just like Judo and it's a problem for the sport IMO

Hopefully one day all grappling Sports will recognize the fact that stepping out of the mat area and getting a magic reset is a big problem because athletes can scoot to the edge pull a high-risk maneuver and just get out for free, when you leave it up to a referee to interpret why they stepped off the mat it just leaves far too much gray area. we see some of the most incredible throws in grappling history out of sumo because the edge of the ring is such a critical aspect, I wouldn't ever expect this to translate to wrestling sambo and judo but it would be pretty cool to see athletes no longer regarding the edge of the mat as a free reset if you can con the referee on a scoot out that doesn't look intentional which is of course extremely easy

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Athletes definitely do not get penalized for stepping out of the mat area in the competition I'm watching...they get a reset just like Judo and it's a problem for the sport IMO

Hopefully one day all grappling Sports will recognize the fact that stepping out of the mat area and getting a magic reset is a big problem because athletes can scoot to the edge pull a high-risk maneuver and just get out for free, when you leave it up to a referee to interpret why they stepped off the mat it just leaves far too much gray area. we see some of the most incredible throws in grappling history out of sumo because the edge of the ring is such a critical aspect, I wouldn't ever expect this to translate to wrestling sambo and judo but it would be pretty cool to see athletes no longer regarding the edge of the mat as a free reset if you can con the referee on a scoot out that doesn't look intentional which is of course extremely easy

International Sambo rule set is as @Gabicho said.
Step outs are penalised, as passivity for the athlete, resulting in points for opponent and eventually a DQ, if continued during the match.

Its quite common.

Sambo does penalises stepping out of the mat and defensive style of wrestling/fighting.

As for no jacket Sambo, it already exists, its called Combat Wrestling.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

International Sambo rule set is as @Gabicho said.
Step outs are penalised, as passivity for the athlete, resulting in points for opponent and eventually a DQ, if continued during the match.

Its quite common.

Sambo does penalises stepping out of the mat and defensive style of wrestling/fighting.

As for no jacket Sambo, it already exists, its called Combat Wrestling.

they need a rigid scoring system to penalize step outs ( like International wrestling) not a referee opinion, that causes too much match orchestration and confusion for new fans.

post a link of "combat wrestling"

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

they need a rigid scoring system to penalize step outs ( like International wrestling) not a referee opinion, that causes too much match orchestration and confusion for new fans.

post a link of "combat wrestling"

1. There is.
2. Google

 

[KingGuerrilla]

1. There is.
2. Google

so this is "giless" Sambo, think there would be a bigger crowd??

i will watch it tonight and look for the step out point.

 

[Gabicho]

they need a rigid scoring system to penalize step outs ( like International wrestling) not a referee opinion, that causes too much match orchestration and confusion for new fans.

post a link of "combat wrestling"

IMO "Stepping out" can't be penalized if it's not consecuuence of an action.
If an action starts inside the mat and ends outside of the mat, it still counts (ex: you start a throw/takedown I side and you end outside, it will count).
Simply putting a foot outside of the fictional combat area that is the mat shouldn't be punishable. The floor isn't lava.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

IMO "Stepping out" can't be penalized if it's not consecuuence of an action.
If an action starts inside the mat and ends outside of the mat, it still counts (ex: you start a throw/takedown I side and you end outside, it will count).
Simply putting a foot outside of the fictional combat area that is the mat shouldn't be punishable. The floor isn't lava.

@ 4min 25 sec We see a world-class belly flop + out of bounds in one go yet it didn't score on either account...whats going on?

This is starting to look a lot like IJF Judo and you can't get 30 people to show up to one of those tournaments in the United States because of the overly complicated and Persnickety rules! Judo is DOA in the USA!!! You don't want to wind up like Judo do you?

I think the out-of-bounds line should be "Lava" much like Sumo (a sport that anybody can understand) and flopping down to your belly under threat of a takedown (like a female elephant seal in Mating Season) should cost you a point...

UC grappling Sports have somewhat of a problem appealing to the layperson due to overly complicated and Persnickety rules

Why do referees end up looking more like orchestrators or conductors in grappling Sports?

Leaving the step out penalty up to opinion causes far too much of a gray area, it would be better off if it were considered "lava" like International wrestling and sumo!

After all those are the most ancient of grappling Sports!

its just you the judo guys and American folk style wrestling that don't seem to mind guys scooting/flopping out of bounds for the "magic reset"

* I think I'm starting to see a pattern

 

[Gabicho]

It's the ruleset that dictates the doctrine, strategy, techniques and tactics of the sport.
Sounds more like there's something else that you would like to see, and that something maybe is not SAMBO?
I never had any problems with the rules as a competitor or as a coach.
The example of "flopping" that you show looks more like an inconsequential throw attempt stopped by good grips and footwork from blue.
If I was the referee I'd also let it pass, because it was not a fake attack: it was just bad.
And why stop the action because of the imaginary "lava"? It makes no sense. Make the mat bigger so it will happen less. Make it smaller if you really want to make it important.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

It's the ruleset that dictates the doctrine, strategy, techniques and tactics of the sport.
Sounds more like there's something else that you would like to see, and that something maybe is not SAMBO?
I never had any problems with the rules as a competitor or as a coach.
The example of "flopping" that you show looks more like an inconsequential throw attempt stopped by good grips and footwork from blue.
If I was the referee I'd also let it pass, because it was not a fake attack: it was just bad.
And why stop the action because of the imaginary "lava"? It makes no sense. Make the mat bigger so it will happen less. Make it smaller if you really want to make it important.

the ring out system of sumo, greco and freestyle provide 100% understandable consequences that even a Layman can instantly appreciate whereas the more complicated and persnickety rule set that bedevil's Judo, sambo and folkstyle hurts their respective Sports and makes it more difficult for laymen to appreciate plus it creates a more theatrical contest where athletes are constantly trying to deceive the referee instead of fighting like lions to maintain a dominant position in the ring

There's a good reason why gigantic men provide some of the most spectacular action in the sport of sumo and it's all based on the consequences of the ring out...

in watching International Sumo you can see smaller athletes hitting phenomenally amazing throws very consistently because the athletes are pushing against one another and that provides the most amazing wrestling action.... whenever there's a bailout option athletes will consistently make false moves designed to deceive the referee in order to get themselves out of trouble

Did you see all those fake ashi waza attempts... cringy (the announcers sure we're making a lot of comments weren't they)?

That belly flop was pretty epic and it's hard for me to respect a sport that allows that kind of action, when I was first told that sambo punished people who flopped on their belly I thought finally we have a submission grappling sport that respected positions as sport judo and bjj lost its way long ago and it's MMA crossover potential is aweful.

Sambo is probably the best lapel grappling sport these days, I just think it's a crying shame that they haven't learned the lessons that judo's failures taught us many years ago. BJJ and Judo just looks REDICILIOUS to those of us with a hardcore MMA background because they do so many Maneuvers that are positional suicide...looks like Sport Sambo is just a bit better but still fails at ring out and bellyflopping criteria so I wouldn't expect it to break any attendance records in the states and I wouldn't expect many MMA champions from its ranks besides the Russians who have been steeped heavily in freestyle and Greco-Roman as well

 

[Gabicho]

the ring out system of sumo, greco and freestyle provide 100% understandable consequences that even a Layman can instantly appreciate whereas the more complicated and persnickety rule set that bedevil's Judo, sambo and folkstyle hurts their respective Sports and makes it more difficult for laymen to appreciate plus it creates a more theatrical contest where athletes are constantly trying to deceive the referee instead of fighting like lions to maintain a dominant position in the ring

There's a good reason why gigantic men provide some of the most spectacular action in the sport of sumo and it's all based on the consequences of the ring out...

in watching International Sumo you can see smaller athletes hitting phenomenally amazing throws very consistently because the athletes are pushing against one another and that provides the most amazing wrestling action.... whenever there's a bailout option athletes will consistently make false moves designed to deceive the referee in order to get themselves out of trouble

Did you see all those fake ashi waza attempts... cringy (the announcers sure we're making a lot of comments weren't they)?

That belly flop was pretty epic and it's hard for me to respect a sport that allows that kind of action, when I was first told that sambo punished people who flopped on their belly I thought finally we have a submission grappling sport that respected positions as sport judo and bjj lost its way long ago and it's MMA crossover potential is aweful.

Sambo is probably the best lapel grappling sport these days, I just think it's a crying shame that they haven't learned the lessons that judo's failures taught us many years ago. BJJ and Judo just looks REDICILIOUS to those of us with a hardcore MMA background because they do so many Maneuvers that are positional suicide...looks like Sport Sambo is just a bit better but still fails at ring out and bellyflopping criteria so I wouldn't expect it to break any attendance records in the states and I wouldn't expect many MMA champions from its ranks besides the Russians who have been steeped heavily in freestyle and Greco-Roman as well

I understand your point. I just don't agree with it.
Have you ever competed in SAMBO?
I haven't met any competitors who thought the step out rule was an issue. Not even with the ones who came from wrestling. In fact, many of them were thankful that there was no "the floor is lava" rule.
The general consensus was that of:

 

[KingGuerrilla]

I understand your point. I just don't agree with it.
Have you ever competed in SAMBO?
I haven't met any competitors who thought the step out rule was an issue. Not even with the ones who came from wrestling. In fact, many of them were thankful that there was no "the floor is lava" rule.
The general consensus was that of:

ive never competed in orginazed Sambo competition, didn't exist in America during my competition days however I did lots of Judo and folkstyle and was always disappointed with the rules that created so much deception and theatrics.

NHB was a breath of fresh air!!!

We had several Russians at my MMA Club back in the NHB days who were kind enough to train Us in sambos MMA crossover techniques but no one had an interest in Lapel grappling right after the UFC came out except the BJJ guys and frankly they were getting mopped by then ( even the Gracies where taking off the Gi) so it seemed lapel grappling was being relegated to the archaic Dustbin of martial arts history

honestly lapel grappling Sports were not something I had any interest in after 1993 because it was believed that these Sports developed bad habits that would get you in trouble in MMA competition and real-world street fight scenarios. Obviously one of the main pitfalls I always preached about was the ring out scenario being a "magic restart" (it always annoyed me)

I coached and competed in folk style wrestling for many decades and would always be bothered by the ring out notion as it created such a theatrical and deceptive performance from athletes. I can remember over the decades the coaching aspect really ate away at you as 'edge of Matt politics" cause so many problems for sports.

I understand why athletes enjoy having a bailout option at the edge of the mat instead of a harsh scoring criteria that forces them to fight to maintain a dominant position

One thing I know for certain is that this criteria makes it more difficult for laymen to become acquainted with the sport because it turns "edge of mat politics" into a judgement call rather than a rigid criteria that anyone can understand.

I'm sure you guys will do much better than than the judo and bjj people who can't seem to draw more spectators than a hot dog eating contest at their events in the states however the upcoming Russian dominance of mixed martial arts will make more people interested in the history of Russian Combat Sports and perhaps sambo could be the "next big thing" in the martial arts industry.

We have regular Sambo sessions at the club nowadays and its definitely something I can see taking off in the future. Thanks for sharing your insights.

 

[Gabicho]

ive never competed in orginazed Sambo competition, didn't exist in America during my competition days however I did lots of Judo and folkstyle and was always disappointed with the rules that created so much deception and theatrics.

NHB was a breath of fresh air!!!

We had several Russians at my MMA Club back in the NHB days who were kind enough to train Us in sambos MMA crossover techniques but no one had an interest in Lapel grappling right after the UFC came out except the BJJ guys and frankly they were getting mopped by then ( even the Gracies where taking off the Gi) so it seemed lapel grappling was being relegated to the archaic Dustbin of martial arts history

honestly lapel grappling Sports were not something I had any interest in after 1993 because it was believed that these Sports developed bad habits that would get you in trouble in MMA competition and real-world street fight scenarios. Obviously one of the main pitfalls I always preached about was the ring out scenario being a "magic restart" (it always annoyed me)

I coached and competed in folk style wrestling for many decades and would always be bothered by the ring out notion as it created such a theatrical and deceptive performance from athletes. I can remember over the decades the coaching aspect really ate away at you as 'edge of Matt politics" cause so many problems for sports.

I understand why athletes enjoy having a bailout option at the edge of the mat instead of a harsh scoring criteria that forces them to fight to maintain a dominant position

One thing I know for certain is that this criteria makes it more difficult for laymen to become acquainted with the sport because it turns "edge of mat politics" into a judgement call rather than a rigid criteria that anyone can understand.

I'm sure you guys will do much better than than the judo and bjj people who can't seem to draw more spectators than a hot dog eating contest at their events in the states however the upcoming Russian dominance of mixed martial arts will make more people interested in the history of Russian Combat Sports and perhaps sambo could be the "next big thing" in the martial arts industry.

We have regular Sambo sessions at the club nowadays and its definitely something I can see taking off in the future. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Unfortunately for SAMBO, it seems it's Olympic dream is dead and buried for the next 12 to 18 years.
The whole anti-Russian boicot, Russian internal and international policies and actions, together with the doping scandals, means SAMBO will have to wait for the sport sanctions to end - in two Olympic cycles- to even start to try to regain the momentum they had.
They went from almost being an exhibition sport in the Olympics to being the most hated sport in the western "democracies" by politics that had never seen it or heard of it, just because Putin likes it and Russia dedicates resources to it (just like to many other sports.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Unfortunately for SAMBO, it seems it's Olympic dream is dead and buried for the next 12 to 18 years.
The whole anti-Russian boicot, Russian internal and international policies and actions, together with the doping scandals, means SAMBO will have to wait for the sport sanctions to end - in two Olympic cycles- to even start to try to regain the momentum they had.
They went from almost being an exhibition sport in the Olympics to being the most hated sport in the western "democracies" by politics that had never seen it or heard of it, just because Putin likes it and Russia dedicates resources to it (just like to many other sports.

I'm not surprised, I don't think the Western "democracies" would be too keen on yet another soviet bloc dominated sport to be honest and I've always highly suspected the Judos leg grab ban to be specifically targeted against soviet bloc athletes. I also believe that wrestling's olympic days are numbered to be replaced by something like extreme inverted butt boarding as the big-money sponsors are more interested in targeting dumb young privileged white people then soviet bloc countries.

I frankly couldn't care less about the Olympics anymore and only view them as a format that lost their way long ago by taking a knee to the almighty advertising dollar as they would immediately turn their entire spectacles into the "X Games" if given the chance

I believe Sambo's future lies in the American retail martial arts world as more and more Russian athletes will prove their dominance in the world's biggest MMA stages and drag what was an obscure martial art into the Limelight as potentially the next big thing...

sport BJJ has butt scooted its way down the rabbit hole as no one can understand what the hell's going on out there unless you have Fanboy dedication to the sport... I just fear sombo could fall prey to the same nebulous Persnickety rule set that bedevil's sport jiu jitsu, judo and folk wrestling if we can't come up with a simplified version of the game that takes edge of mat opinion out of the mix and replaces the scoring criteria with Concrete and easy-to-understand criterias i fear sambo will wind up like judo in the states

IMO thats what kept BJJ, Judo and wrestling from becoming a major Spectators sport in the United States despite their obvious MMA exposure, the rules are just too complicated for the causal fan

strip mall BJJ still holds up a fair amount of business because so many people still believe in its MMA Legacy and it's been so carefully nerfed down to be safe for a little Johnny (much like folkstyle wresstling)

Judo on the other hand has become more dangerous and heavier on the impacts and I think their injury rate is Testament to that

 

[CarlosMaeda]

LOL. Have not been in here in years. Just popping my head in because someone pm'd me. Looks like nothing has changed LOL. People are still misunderstanding sambo and talkjng about catch frauds. It is like a time warp.

Well, this sure was a productive and insightful post that raised the bar of discussion.

 

[emptypen]

I remember my old judo coach, international level but not competing and a few years out from it. Still pretty sound. He went into a bjj comp and cleaned house. Fought a Sambo guy in the last fight and assumed he'd smoke him too. He did smoke him with throws and control. Lost via leg lock (a kneebar I think). For the longest time I thought he got lucky. Looking back, that sambo guy was always cool and collected. I now think he had a long term strategy and 'smoked' my coach.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

IOC moves forward with inclusion of Sambo in the Olympics:
https://sambo.sport/en/news/ispolkom-mok-rekomenduet-fias-dlya-polucheniya-postoyannogo-priznaniya/

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Last Sunday, we held a Sambo Par Terre (only ground techniques) tournament at my gym.

8 men open weight, straight joint locks and strangle holds allowed.
One pin for 4 points.

ALL matches finished before the time limit, via submission.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

This fight was fire!

 

[jdixon]

Hello,

Was wondering if anyone here a member of the NY Combat Sambo school/gym?

I'm really interested in joining, but not sure if they're accepting new students because of covid. Their website says they will do a phased reopening as of Phase 2, but it's Phase 4 currently and the notice isn't removed.

Sorry if it's an obvious question. I see some martial arts schools are open, but I don't know the state of grappling based schools in the pandemic.

I figured I can give them a call; but they're closed for the weekend, so I thought maybe I'd ask here

Thank you