International Russia vs Ukraine Combat Megathread vol 4

[Anewt]

I should address the core of your argument though. Your argument at its heart is that Russians are more moral than Americans. That's why in everything they do, they take significantly more care to minimize civilian casualties. And the Americans don't.

I honestly don't care about whether you think Americans are moral or not. If you want to believe that Russians are actually saints and I just can't see the halo from here, that's fine.

BUT. EVEN IF we grant you that Russia is trying to be more moral than the Americans. As I said above. An inefficient or ineffective war does not prevent more civilian casualties than an effective one. We're 13 days into the Russo/Ukrainian War. The Russians are not on track to conquer Ukraine in the next 13 days. And the longer the war draws out, the more civilians will die. So even if you legitimately think only 474 civilians have died in the first 13 days. Its not as simple a calculation as doubling it for 26 days and just assume the war will be over by then so wow look, the Russians were so much more humane.

Perhaps it's possible, it's certainly not likely, not least in part due to the fact that they have to lay siege on a lot of major cities. Even the first round of smaller cities that they laid siege to (Mariupol, Sumy, Volnovakha, Irpin) have not yet surrendered. Much less the second round of cities that they would need to lay siege to, larger cities with significantly more area to cover and many more inroads/outroads that could lead to the city being resupplied. These include, Kyiv, Kharkiv, Dnipro, and Odessa. To get to Odessa they first need to finish the siege of Mykolaiv, which only begun after the capture of Kherson. The siege force for Kyiv is that convoy that is stuck in a massive traffic jam outside Kyiv, etc. So not only will the sieges not likely end before 13 days have passed, they may not even have begun before 13 more days have passed. They also continually have to suppress attacks on logistics in the suburbs around both Kyiv and Kharkiv, thus far preventing effective encirclement of Kharkiv. No units have even reached Dnipro, they've only pushed so far as Zaporizhzhia.

So if you think "wow, well this war will be over really quickly and the Russians will have done it really bloodlessly compared to those bloodthirsty Americans." You're wrong. This is going to be a long war, and if Russia persists in waging it, it's really only just beginning. For the invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi estimate for civilian fatalities is 7200 (the Ukrainian estimate so far in this war is over 2000) while the NGO estimate is 3200-4300. Russia has plenty of time to reach and greatly surpass those numbers, seeing as the war for the largest cities has hardly begun.

I'm honestly not even going to bother if you think I believe Russia is more moral than usa..

You guys are absolutely ridiculous lol

 

[San Marino]

Will Russia finance its war in the Ukraine by selling ice cream to China?

• Users of Weibo, China's Twitter-like platform, have become fixated on Russian ice cream.

Chinese social media users are fervently discussing Russian ice cream amid the Ukraine crisis (msn.com)

1,448,471,400 Chinese in China. That is a shit-ton of Chinese eating Russian ice cream. I want to try some...

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

...... you're being a clown.. did I say vehicle attacks didn't occur.. what do you think happened after the first few vehicle attacks?

I'm guessing the americans just sat there and let vehicles roll up to then and molotov then drive away without a single round fired.

Oh ground troops now = Lower casualties now? Luckily Russia has ground troops then hey.....

The Americans never let themselves take casualties because they did everything via airstrike. 2. "never said ground troops weren't targeted by Iraqi locals." Which is it? Did we let our ground troops take casualties or not? You can't have it both ways.

Are you purposefully being obtuse? Or just taking things so damn literally it's ridiculous?

I never said Americans never suffered casualties lol why the hell do you think airstrikes were called? It wasn't oh. I sense a disturbance in the force. Call in a airstrike.... it was fuck that they shot at us from that building./ area . call in a airstrike.


I honestly have no idea what you are actually arguing.

Oh yes.. Kiev independent I'm sure is a trustworthy non bias source... without a doubt they would be accurately reporting......

So far, 474 civilians have been killed and 861 injured. 38 children have been killed and 71 wounded.

By your source.... and it will definitely be more killed.. where are you coming up with these estimates and projections ? How many died in the first month of Iraq.. you'll obviously know the answer to that since the estimates directly referred to it.... according to you.

Look what you wrote

We don't have estimates as to the total number of civilian deaths thus far, only confirmed totals, but projections indicate that this war will and may have already cost the lives of more civilians than the entire 26 day invasion of Iraq.

So without having estimates... it's projected the war will have more deaths than the first month of Iraq already... come on bud... source me up

You're all over the place, and virtually unintelligible.

The bottomline is that you're trying to draw a lot of distinctions in the war. There really aren't many distinctions to be made. Both sides have ground troops. The weather is different. There was that 3-4 day period where small recon groups outran logistics and nothing else really happened. That's the only intentional difference. It's been overcast and occasionally precipitating in Ukraine so they haven't been able to use as many sorties. Instead, they've used more PGMs. That's not a meaningful difference. Now why did they outrun logistics for 3-4 days before waging conventional warfare? Most analysts think they believed shock and awe would be enough to cause a Ukrainian surrender. Clearly you have some 5 head theory about how waging war ineffectively for 3-4 days before waging war effectively is somehow supposed to save civilian casualties. Ok, whatever. Believe what you want haha

Those are not estimates. Those are the confirmed totals by the relevant NGO. If you want a different news reporter reporting the same news then here you go.
https://www.reuters.com/world/civil...w-474-more-casualties-reported-un-2022-03-08/
As it says in this article, it only counts verified deaths. Not missing persons who may be dead. And we're only at the 13 day mark, which is half the duration of the Iraqi invasion. This invasion will clearly take much longer. And even if completed, the Russians will likely have to face a similar insurgency. You want to believe in all these distinctions, and you have all these theories for why these distinctions that you've made up in your head are. They really just don't exist.

 

[Anewt]

You're all over the place, and virtually unintelligible.

The bottomline is that you're trying to draw a lot of distinctions in the war. There really aren't many distinctions to be made. Both sides have ground troops. The weather is different. There was that 3-4 day period where small recon groups outran logistics and nothing else really happened. That's the only intentional difference. It's been overcast and occasionally precipitating in Ukraine so they haven't been able to use as many sorties. Instead, they've used more PGMs. That's not a meaningful difference. Now why did they outrun logistics for 3-4 days before waging conventional warfare? Most analysts think they believed shock and awe would be enough to cause a Ukrainian surrender. Clearly you have some 5 head theory about how waging war ineffectively for 3-4 days before waging war effectively is somehow supposed to save civilian casualties. Ok, whatever. Believe what you want haha

Those are not estimates. Those are the confirmed totals by the relevant NGO. If you want a different news reporter reporting the same news then here you go.
https://www.reuters.com/world/civil...w-474-more-casualties-reported-un-2022-03-08/
As it says in this article, it only counts verified deaths. Not missing persons who may be dead. And we're only at the 13 day mark, which is half the duration of the Iraqi invasion. This invasion will clearly take much longer. And even if completed, the Russians will likely have to face a similar insurgency. You want to believe in all these distinctions, and you have all these theories for why these distinctions that you've made up in your head are. They really just don't exist.

Projections that the deal toll will be greater than Iraq plz.

 

[Phlog]

Just found out about the Wagner Group and the are like a Russian mercenaries group that done a lot of shit in the last few year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

Yeah they've been brought up a lot ITT, torture, crucifixion, eyeball removal, civilian clothes behind lines assassination attempts etc.

It was pretty obvious from the start they've been using kid gloves compared to how the west runs war.

Could you imagine cars doing drive by Molotov at tanks In Iraq? Hell no. They'd be destroyed before getting close. Same with firing from buildings. Thatd be a airstrike.

Seems the biggest difference is America ( and the West. Australia is as complicit ) value's it's troops lives more than civilians of whomever they've invaded. At the start of this invasion seems the Russians were far more willing to risk its troops lives when dealing with the civilians.

Fucking crazy. I've always been pro west... but pfffft. It's a bit of a joke.

I tip my hate to western propaganda tho... well played well played

At the beginning the troops believed they were liberators and were asking for directions and fuel/food from Ukrainians. Because Putin pretended it was a training exercise, then a special operation before revealing to his troops and people its a straight invasion and regime change.

And Russia doesn't care for it's troops, it's not that it cares for civilians more, lol.

I see no discussions about 2 Romanian military crafts (fighter jet and helicopter), probably downed by Ukrainian anti-air system 6 days ago. No news about it in western media? Meanwhile, Romania found missile parts on the crash site and asked Ukraine for their AA activities that day.

Friendly fire a matter of interest to you?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Your previous posts have been wrong and they should concern you because they draw your credibility into question. It makes you look like a fool.

I have told you in literally every post it doesn’t look like the image you provided. I don’t know what it is. Don’t think it’s that.

Tough talk? You’re an idiot and a classic narcissist who cannot admit he was wrong and instead has fully pivoted to a new subject. We’re all watching this in real time, you dope.

are you fucking blind?
that's clearly a black sun on that girl.
stop embarrassing yourself with hyperpartisan crap.
just because they're on our side doesn't mean we should be blind to everything.

 

[Anewt]

Yeah they've been brought up a lot ITT, torture, crucifixion, eyeball removal, civilian clothes behind lines assassination attempts etc.



At the beginning the troops believed they were liberators and were asking for directions and fuel/food from Ukrainians. Because Putin pretended it was a training exercise, then a special operation before revealing to his troops and people its a straight invasion and regime change.

And Russia doesn't care for it's troops, it's not that it cares for civilians more, lol.



Friendly fire a matter of interest to you?

Lol I'm not disagreeing at all with that. So.... hypothetically say Ukraine agreed to the current deal offered by Russia. The 4 stipulations. Everyone is still going to run with his goal was all Ukraine?

 

[Anewt]

Yeah they've been brought up a lot ITT, torture, crucifixion, eyeball removal, civilian clothes behind lines assassination attempts etc.



At the beginning the troops believed they were liberators and were asking for directions and fuel/food from Ukrainians. Because Putin pretended it was a training exercise, then a special operation before revealing to his troops and people its a straight invasion and regime change.

And Russia doesn't care for it's troops, it's not that it cares for civilians more, lol.



Friendly fire a matter of interest to you?

Also was the crucifixion Warner group? Or azoz. Because I've seen both claimed... and honestly after the video I wanted to forget it not research it lol.

Was hoping it was a fake

 

[PEB]

Toronto Canada got a scare where huge number of tanks traveling over a bridge for what Canada said moving for a training exercise. But during this time people were shocked. The official statement was training but people think something bad.

 

[fingercuffs]

Toronto Canada got a scare where huge number of tanks traveling over a bridge for what Canada said moving for a training exercise. But during this time people were shocked. The official statement was training but people think something bad.

Haha, routine. Everyone's going to get their knickers in a twist.

 

[PEB]

Haha, routine. Everyone's going to get their knickers in a twist.

True but funny they are letting their mind run wild. Fun side note that is like a hundred plus million of tanks just in the clip funny.

 

[San Marino]

Ukraine is getting Russian-made weapons to defeat its Russian invaders (msn.com)

 

[fingercuffs]

True but funny they are letting their mind run wild.

Likely in for a tune up, as would happen every March of every year.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

Projections that the deal toll will be greater than Iraq plz.

You were first to assert that russian induced civilian casualties would be lower because they value the lives of invaded civilians relative to the americans, so the burden of proof is clearly on you to show that it in fact will be lower. I've provided skeptical arguments against that (ex. casualties ramped up significantly after 4 days due to changes in ROE, civilian casualty numbers as is are very high, the invasion is likely to take longer). Now it's your turn to provide reasons to believe your assertion that russian induced civilian casualties would be lower.

You want to place the burden of proof on me, I know. Since it would make it more comfortable for you. But this is the bed you've made so lie in it.
"It was pretty obvious from the start they've been using kid gloves compared to how the west runs war."
"Seems the biggest difference is America ( and the West. Australia is as complicit ) value's it's troops lives more than civilians of whomever they've invaded."
"First paragraph. The casualties are still exceptionally low for civilians . You think the kid gloves came off after 3 4 days... I disagree partially. Because its definitely escalated.. I said compared to the US in Iraq."

Since you believe that Russia values the lives of civilians they've invaded more than the Americans, please go ahead and actually prove why we should believe that when this invasion is over, say nothing of the war against the insurgency they'd have to fight afterwards, that fewer civilian casualties will have been incurred.

 

[Anewt]

I see no discussions about 2 Romanian military crafts (fighter jet and helicopter), probably downed by Ukrainian anti-air system 6 days ago. No news about it in western media? Meanwhile, Romania found missile parts on the crash site and asked Ukraine for their AA activities that day.

I had a search for this found nothing.

Really wish I spoke more than just English

 

[Dexter]

Friendly fire a matter of interest to you?

Yeah, I just remember well how Ukrainians shot down their own fighter jet over Kiev and put that AA missile in the residential living building recently.
And then, suddenly, I remembered an interesting situation with some downed Boeing, blamed on Donbass separatists several years ago…

 

[hitcher]

For sure the Russian military is willing to spend lives far more so than the western powers.

I would argue that they’re more willing to target civilians as well. A lot of the context that gets left out about talk about how many Iraqis or viet-namese died during American occupation is overwhelmingly this was not US military targeting civilians. The US military may target civilians in some instances, but it’s going to be something like Fallujah where the population is given fair warning to leave and then those who don’t are to be treated as insurgents. Russia in contrast here is using their military to trap civilians during sieges. It’s not like they’re trying to kill them, but they’re very willing to herd them to be used as bargaining chips.

If that was the case why did probably millions of civilian die in the past 20 years in US wars/battles?

 

[JSN]

If that was the case why did probably millions of civilian die in the past 20 years in US wars/battles?

Simmering tensions in absolute hellholes. Shia groups killing tons of Sunnis when they got into power and Sunni groups marching in to kill anyone opposing their new caliphate. Afghan warlords fighting fundamentalist Sunnis, etc.

 

[PEB]

Well Israel not acting like a trustworthy messenger with Putin's offer to Ukraine. It's a pretty bad deal hands over most of the shipping areas an mineral an farming lands to Russia. Ukraine President Zelensky already predicted this was the offer they would give an It's a big no. Israel made no mention of US talks with Iran that seemed to lead to a trip by Israeli PM.

"
The ceasefire talks between Russia and Ukraine are at a critical juncture, Israeli officials said today.

Why it matters: Israel, which has good relations with both Ukraine and Russia, is in a unique situation mediating between the countries.

Driving the news: Israeli officials with direct information about the talks coordinated by Israel said they feel there is a softening of positions on both sides in the last 24 hours, with the Russians saying they only want to demilitarize the Donbas region and Zelensky telling ABC news he has “cooled down” about joining NATO.

• Israeli officials said they hope these are signs that more progress toward a diplomatic solution might be possible.

Catch up quick: Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett visited Moscow on Saturday and met with Putin. Since then, he's been engaged in a flurry of phone calls with Putin, Zelensky, French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

• On Tuesday, Bennett spoke again to Zelensky about the ceasefire efforts and then called Putin to pass on a message from the Ukrainian president.
• The Kremlin said Putin briefed Bennett on the results of the third round of talks between Russia and Ukraine in Belarus.

Behind the scenes: Two Israeli officials said Bennett isn't presenting Putin and Zelensky with any plan or framework and is only passing messages between the leaders.

• In the meeting with Putin, Bennett relayed ideas that came up from Ukraine and other countries, including France and Germany, in order to get Putin’s reaction and assess whether he is flexible or not on his current conditions for a ceasefire, Israeli officials said.

 

[Anewt]

Since you believe that Russia values the lives of civilians they've invaded more than the Americans, please go ahead and actually prove why we should believe that when this invasion is over, say nothing of the war against the insurgency they'd have to fight afterwards, that fewer civilian casualties will have been incurred.

It was pretty obvious from the start they've been using kid gloves compared to how the west runs war."
"Seems the biggest difference is America ( and the West. Australia is as complicit ) value's it's troops lives more than civilians of whomever they've invaded."

It's a reference to Russia not caring about their troops.......

It's why I agreed with this

For sure the Russian military is willing to spend lives far more so than the western powers.

I would argue that they’re more willing to target civilians as well. A lot of the context that gets left out about talk about how many Iraqis or viet-namese died during American occupation is overwhelmingly this was not US military targeting civilians. The US military may target civilians in some instances, but it’s going to be something like Fallujah where the population is given fair warning to leave and then those who don’t are to be treated as insurgents. Russia in contrast here is using their military to trap civilians during sieges. It’s not like they’re trying to kill them, but they’re very willing to herd them to be used as bargaining chips.

It's also why I said this

Seems the biggest difference is America value's it's troops lives more than civilians of whomever they've invaded. At the start of this invasion seems the Russians were far more willing to risk its troops lives when dealing with the civilians.


Conviently you leave that second part out every time.......

Considering you said

That's why the modus operandi changed so drastically heading into the 4th day. Prior to that, they had been fighting a war of delusion. The third day was the first day they began using their fires.

Looks like we agree. So.. mind sourcing me these projections?