Russia/Ukraine Megathread V6

[Anewt]

@siver1

Think I found your video. Was the link to the BBC one right? It was a nice piece.... yet why would you agree with this
give zero fucks about LARP'ing militiamen.

If according to your video they were the bad guys and it's been tidied up since then?

Wouldn't that video suggest that In 2014 the larping militia were the neo nazis ?




Yet it doesn't explain all this...

https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

 

[PEB]

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Big shock, again, that's not the interview, but it's entertaining watching how much crap you guys post that's anything but the actual interview you all decide to speak authoritatively about.

And you didn't wonder at all why there's an ellipsis right in the middle of what they quoted?

Let me help you with what they decided to leave out and just put "..." instead, to intentionally skip right over. "And by the way, this never would have happened. Had I been in office, it wouldn't even be thinkable", and then added, "it's very sad" at the end. And THAT is what you clowns decided was an endorsement? Just lol. Brought to you by the same suckers who still think he called neo nazis "very fine people".

Here's the actual interview that none of you gave. What he said was savvy is declaring Donetsk and Luhansk independent rather than Russian when their troops were on the border, which it clearly was considering not even Ukraine thought they were going to invade most of the country.

 

[Anewt]

https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

I'll post a few things from it. As it's quite a long read.

The Azov movement has gained in reputation and power, not only in their home country of Ukraine, but across the world. The group, which began as a volunteer paramilitary organization, has evolved and expanded since its conception. Now an integrated part of Ukraine’s formal military forces, its leaders are currently active in local and national politics. Although they have been only marginally successful at the polls, they have been very visible in the national discussion of how to form a new, post-Maidan Ukrainian identity through physical protests, online discussion, and active recruiting to their nationalist organizations. Comparing facets of Azov to 20th-century fascism reveals concerning similarities that should not be overlooked, as modern-day fascism and its violence could pose a threat to the current Ukrainian government’s efforts to establish itself as a democratic, European state.

Mann points to the coercion of the opposition as an aspect of fascist paramilitarism. Azov has been connected to violence symagainst an anti-fascist march in Kyiv in 2018, a violent intervention in a lecture about discrimination in film in Mariupol, and an attack against feminist demonstrators and liberals on International Women’s Day (OpenDemocracy, 2018). These are only a few examples of the violence carried out against their opposition, and while “they do not possess a complete monopoly on violence, Azov has certainly established political control of the streets in Mariupol. To maintain this control, they have to react violently… to any public event which diverges sufficiently from their political agenda” (OpenDemocracy, 2018, para. 42). Azov has clearly demonstrated violence against opposing groups in its own country.

Another part of the definition of fascism is cleansing: the removal of opponents and enemies, whether ethnic or political (Mann, 2004). In the 20th century, the Nazis targeted specific ethnic groups, while Italian Fascists targeted political groups (Mann, 2004). In the case of Ukraine, anti-Roma pogroms are an example of ethnic cleansing. One of the groups responsible for the multiple deadly attacks on Roma camps in the spring of 2018 was the National Druzhina. This street patrol and militia is arguably a component of the Azov movement, as it is a volunteer paramilitary group formed under the National Corps, which is a political party created by Azov leadership (Miller, 2018).

To add to the problematic neo-nazism present in the group, Azov’s symbol is highly similar in appearance to the Nazi Wolfsangel; however, the group denies such claims and says it is an amalgam of “N” and “I” representing “national idea” (Miller, 2018). Although the group denies connections to neo-nazis, Azov itself formed from two neo-nazi groups. Individual members of Azov have openly acknowledged being neo-nazis, and the fondness the group has for symbols, salutes, and swastikas that can be called, at least, “nazi-reminiscent” are telling of their anti-Semitic beliefs (Golinkin, 2019).

It has been observed that “in light of daily reports from the front lines and weekly tallies of war victims, Ukrainian official political rhetoric, mass media discourse, cultural policies, and memory affairs have become more militant and nationalistic” (Umland, 2020, para. 30). This mainstreaming of a nationalist message will likely allow ultra-nationalist groups such as Azov to be more tolerated and accepted, if not supported, in Ukraine.

There has been a state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators in Ukraine. In 2015, Ukraine made it a criminal offense to deny the heroism of two WWII paramilitaries, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Both of these “fascist organizations collaborated with Nazi Germany, carried out ethnic cleansing and mass murder on a massive scale,” (Rudling, 2011). Furthermore, state officials have publicly made anti-semitic statements, including a parliament deputy going on an anti-semitic rant on television and a far-right politician remarking that Hitler didn’t finish off the Jews (Golinkin, 2019). The Israeli state’s recent report on antisemitism noted that Ukraine had more instances of anti-Semitic activity than all other post-Soviet countries combined (Golinkin, 2019). This increasingly anti-semitic climate within the Ukrainian government may allow for more tolerance or even acceptance towards groups with neo-Nazi associations, such as Azov. This is dangerous for Jewish people living in Ukraine, and it weakens the developing legitimacy of Ukraine’s government.

Despite its attempts to mainstream, multiple instances of violence and hatred connected to the movement can be noted. National Corps members have been associated with disruptions and violence towards the LGBT community, liberals, Roma community, and anti-fascists. For example, in August 2018, twenty people carried out an attack on an “anti-discrimination” punk concert in Mariupol, where the performing artist was known to be anti-fascist (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). While this instance was not officially associated with the National Corps, two of the attackers were wearing the National Corps symbols (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). Members of the National Corps also disrupted a closed training session for psychologists that discussed the specifics of working with members of the LGBT community in Poltava (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). It is now described as a “nationalist hate group” by the US State Department’s Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor (Reporting Radicalism, 2020).

Ukraine is already a fragile state, weakened by an ongoing military conflict on its soil and through its own corruption and resulting poor economy. Azov and similar groups are seen as the “enforcers of the popular will, defenders of the nation against Russian encroachment from the East and liberal values from the West” (Roussinos, 2019, para. 8). As Azov has expanded from a volunteer militia into a “wide-ranging infrastructure of civil and military groups,” it has furthered its presence in Ukrainian society and public life. The mainstreaming of Azov’s message, by shedding some of its more radical components on the surface and denying neo-nazi connections, will only allow it to further its appeal and increase recruitment. All of this is in the context of a general rise in nationalist sentiment, anti-semitic incidents, and increasing use of violence against political opponents, which poses an imminent danger to the people and state of Ukraine.

Article from September 2021

 

[Dexter]

And still you hold on to it like mad refusing to address the issues when I pointed out your bullshit.

Dude, you ran into a 3rd or 4th thread we were discussing it. Calm down, read them, if you really want to argue something. My statement was - Ukrainians have neo-nazi support on government level (both in military and in politics - examples are "Azov" regiment and "Svoboda" National-social party), while in Russian these groups that survived the anti-nazi cull of 200x are operating well beyond the law.

That'd be interesting.

As promised

 

[TUFNewb]

https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

I'll post a few things from it. As it's quite a long read.

The Azov movement has gained in reputation and power, not only in their home country of Ukraine, but across the world. The group, which began as a volunteer paramilitary organization, has evolved and expanded since its conception. Now an integrated part of Ukraine’s formal military forces, its leaders are currently active in local and national politics. Although they have been only marginally successful at the polls, they have been very visible in the national discussion of how to form a new, post-Maidan Ukrainian identity through physical protests, online discussion, and active recruiting to their nationalist organizations. Comparing facets of Azov to 20th-century fascism reveals concerning similarities that should not be overlooked, as modern-day fascism and its violence could pose a threat to the current Ukrainian government’s efforts to establish itself as a democratic, European state.

Mann points to the coercion of the opposition as an aspect of fascist paramilitarism. Azov has been connected to violence symagainst an anti-fascist march in Kyiv in 2018, a violent intervention in a lecture about discrimination in film in Mariupol, and an attack against feminist demonstrators and liberals on International Women’s Day (OpenDemocracy, 2018). These are only a few examples of the violence carried out against their opposition, and while “they do not possess a complete monopoly on violence, Azov has certainly established political control of the streets in Mariupol. To maintain this control, they have to react violently… to any public event which diverges sufficiently from their political agenda” (OpenDemocracy, 2018, para. 42). Azov has clearly demonstrated violence against opposing groups in its own country.

Another part of the definition of fascism is cleansing: the removal of opponents and enemies, whether ethnic or political (Mann, 2004). In the 20th century, the Nazis targeted specific ethnic groups, while Italian Fascists targeted political groups (Mann, 2004). In the case of Ukraine, anti-Roma pogroms are an example of ethnic cleansing. One of the groups responsible for the multiple deadly attacks on Roma camps in the spring of 2018 was the National Druzhina. This street patrol and militia is arguably a component of the Azov movement, as it is a volunteer paramilitary group formed under the National Corps, which is a political party created by Azov leadership (Miller, 2018).

To add to the problematic neo-nazism present in the group, Azov’s symbol is highly similar in appearance to the Nazi Wolfsangel; however, the group denies such claims and says it is an amalgam of “N” and “I” representing “national idea” (Miller, 2018). Although the group denies connections to neo-nazis, Azov itself formed from two neo-nazi groups. Individual members of Azov have openly acknowledged being neo-nazis, and the fondness the group has for symbols, salutes, and swastikas that can be called, at least, “nazi-reminiscent” are telling of their anti-Semitic beliefs (Golinkin, 2019).

It has been observed that “in light of daily reports from the front lines and weekly tallies of war victims, Ukrainian official political rhetoric, mass media discourse, cultural policies, and memory affairs have become more militant and nationalistic” (Umland, 2020, para. 30). This mainstreaming of a nationalist message will likely allow ultra-nationalist groups such as Azov to be more tolerated and accepted, if not supported, in Ukraine.

There has been a state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators in Ukraine. In 2015, Ukraine made it a criminal offense to deny the heroism of two WWII paramilitaries, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Both of these “fascist organizations collaborated with Nazi Germany, carried out ethnic cleansing and mass murder on a massive scale,” (Rudling, 2011). Furthermore, state officials have publicly made anti-semitic statements, including a parliament deputy going on an anti-semitic rant on television and a far-right politician remarking that Hitler didn’t finish off the Jews (Golinkin, 2019). The Israeli state’s recent report on antisemitism noted that Ukraine had more instances of anti-Semitic activity than all other post-Soviet countries combined (Golinkin, 2019). This increasingly anti-semitic climate within the Ukrainian government may allow for more tolerance or even acceptance towards groups with neo-Nazi associations, such as Azov. This is dangerous for Jewish people living in Ukraine, and it weakens the developing legitimacy of Ukraine’s government.

Despite its attempts to mainstream, multiple instances of violence and hatred connected to the movement can be noted. National Corps members have been associated with disruptions and violence towards the LGBT community, liberals, Roma community, and anti-fascists. For example, in August 2018, twenty people carried out an attack on an “anti-discrimination” punk concert in Mariupol, where the performing artist was known to be anti-fascist (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). While this instance was not officially associated with the National Corps, two of the attackers were wearing the National Corps symbols (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). Members of the National Corps also disrupted a closed training session for psychologists that discussed the specifics of working with members of the LGBT community in Poltava (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). It is now described as a “nationalist hate group” by the US State Department’s Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor (Reporting Radicalism, 2020).

Ukraine is already a fragile state, weakened by an ongoing military conflict on its soil and through its own corruption and resulting poor economy. Azov and similar groups are seen as the “enforcers of the popular will, defenders of the nation against Russian encroachment from the East and liberal values from the West” (Roussinos, 2019, para. 8). As Azov has expanded from a volunteer militia into a “wide-ranging infrastructure of civil and military groups,” it has furthered its presence in Ukrainian society and public life. The mainstreaming of Azov’s message, by shedding some of its more radical components on the surface and denying neo-nazi connections, will only allow it to further its appeal and increase recruitment. All of this is in the context of a general rise in nationalist sentiment, anti-semitic incidents, and increasing use of violence against political opponents, which poses an imminent danger to the people and state of Ukraine.

Article from September 2021

We know they are bad guys. There is no great revelation to be had here that will convince people Russia is not the primary threat. Russia shouldn't start "military conflict" if they don't want bad guys joining the fight against them. I legit wish Azov success against the invaders. I really do. They are the lesser of two evils right now. It sucks but that is the world we live in thanks to Russia.


It's pretty simple:

Ukrainian nazism is bad.

Russian nazism is much worse and is actually the cause of Ukrainian nazism.

Eliminate the root and Azov will wither on the vine.

 

[Anewt]

We know they are bad guys. There is no great revelation to be had here that will convince people Russia is not the primary threat. Russia shouldn't start "military conflict" if they don't want bad guys joining the fight against them. I legit wish Azov success against the invaders. I really do. They are the lesser of two evils right now. It sucks but that is the world we live in thanks to Russia.


It's pretty simple:

Ukrainian nazism is bad.

Russian nazism is much worse and is actually the cause of Ukrainian nazism.

Eliminate the root and Azov will wither on the vine.

I agree with most of your post actually. But I think a bit more blame should be placed on the founders / funders of Azov. The former ogliarch governors of the 2 regions of the donbas bare a lot of responsibility in my opinion.. but yes fuck Russia for invading.



And yes all nazis can get fucked lol

 

[Anewt]

Dude, you ran into a 3rd or 4th thread we were discussing it. Calm down, read them, if you really want to argue something. My statement was - Ukrainians have neo-nazi support on government level (both in military and in politics - examples are "Azov" regiment and "Svoboda" National-social party), while in Russian these groups that survived the anti-nazi cull of 200x are operating well beyond the law.



As promised

Lol from what I've been reading. You should be rolling in dough with that stash

 

[idrankyourbeer]

Because you'll be immediately flooded with responses from the entire TDS brigade who really need you to believe that the bad orange man is responsible for Russia invading Ukraine. In fact he's probably there now.

so who is responsible for russia invading ukraine? its not putin is it? we got some nazi tractors over there or what?

 

[Dexter]

Lol from what I've been reading. You should be rolling in dough with that stash

It's not my stash, it's from my local shop .
I will not deny that in the early days people panicked and grabbed sugar and buckwheat - the same thing happened in the early days of the covid epidemic. But now everyone has stocked up enough at home <Lmaoo>, and everything is in order in the stores again, as you can see in the photo.

 

[idrankyourbeer]

https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

I'll post a few things from it. As it's quite a long read.

The Azov movement has gained in reputation and power, not only in their home country of Ukraine, but across the world. The group, which began as a volunteer paramilitary organization, has evolved and expanded since its conception. Now an integrated part of Ukraine’s formal military forces, its leaders are currently active in local and national politics. Although they have been only marginally successful at the polls, they have been very visible in the national discussion of how to form a new, post-Maidan Ukrainian identity through physical protests, online discussion, and active recruiting to their nationalist organizations. Comparing facets of Azov to 20th-century fascism reveals concerning similarities that should not be overlooked, as modern-day fascism and its violence could pose a threat to the current Ukrainian government’s efforts to establish itself as a democratic, European state.

Mann points to the coercion of the opposition as an aspect of fascist paramilitarism. Azov has been connected to violence symagainst an anti-fascist march in Kyiv in 2018, a violent intervention in a lecture about discrimination in film in Mariupol, and an attack against feminist demonstrators and liberals on International Women’s Day (OpenDemocracy, 2018). These are only a few examples of the violence carried out against their opposition, and while “they do not possess a complete monopoly on violence, Azov has certainly established political control of the streets in Mariupol. To maintain this control, they have to react violently… to any public event which diverges sufficiently from their political agenda” (OpenDemocracy, 2018, para. 42). Azov has clearly demonstrated violence against opposing groups in its own country.

Another part of the definition of fascism is cleansing: the removal of opponents and enemies, whether ethnic or political (Mann, 2004). In the 20th century, the Nazis targeted specific ethnic groups, while Italian Fascists targeted political groups (Mann, 2004). In the case of Ukraine, anti-Roma pogroms are an example of ethnic cleansing. One of the groups responsible for the multiple deadly attacks on Roma camps in the spring of 2018 was the National Druzhina. This street patrol and militia is arguably a component of the Azov movement, as it is a volunteer paramilitary group formed under the National Corps, which is a political party created by Azov leadership (Miller, 2018).

To add to the problematic neo-nazism present in the group, Azov’s symbol is highly similar in appearance to the Nazi Wolfsangel; however, the group denies such claims and says it is an amalgam of “N” and “I” representing “national idea” (Miller, 2018). Although the group denies connections to neo-nazis, Azov itself formed from two neo-nazi groups. Individual members of Azov have openly acknowledged being neo-nazis, and the fondness the group has for symbols, salutes, and swastikas that can be called, at least, “nazi-reminiscent” are telling of their anti-Semitic beliefs (Golinkin, 2019).

It has been observed that “in light of daily reports from the front lines and weekly tallies of war victims, Ukrainian official political rhetoric, mass media discourse, cultural policies, and memory affairs have become more militant and nationalistic” (Umland, 2020, para. 30). This mainstreaming of a nationalist message will likely allow ultra-nationalist groups such as Azov to be more tolerated and accepted, if not supported, in Ukraine.

There has been a state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators in Ukraine. In 2015, Ukraine made it a criminal offense to deny the heroism of two WWII paramilitaries, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Both of these “fascist organizations collaborated with Nazi Germany, carried out ethnic cleansing and mass murder on a massive scale,” (Rudling, 2011). Furthermore, state officials have publicly made anti-semitic statements, including a parliament deputy going on an anti-semitic rant on television and a far-right politician remarking that Hitler didn’t finish off the Jews (Golinkin, 2019). The Israeli state’s recent report on antisemitism noted that Ukraine had more instances of anti-Semitic activity than all other post-Soviet countries combined (Golinkin, 2019). This increasingly anti-semitic climate within the Ukrainian government may allow for more tolerance or even acceptance towards groups with neo-Nazi associations, such as Azov. This is dangerous for Jewish people living in Ukraine, and it weakens the developing legitimacy of Ukraine’s government.

Despite its attempts to mainstream, multiple instances of violence and hatred connected to the movement can be noted. National Corps members have been associated with disruptions and violence towards the LGBT community, liberals, Roma community, and anti-fascists. For example, in August 2018, twenty people carried out an attack on an “anti-discrimination” punk concert in Mariupol, where the performing artist was known to be anti-fascist (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). While this instance was not officially associated with the National Corps, two of the attackers were wearing the National Corps symbols (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). Members of the National Corps also disrupted a closed training session for psychologists that discussed the specifics of working with members of the LGBT community in Poltava (Reporting Radicalism, 2020). It is now described as a “nationalist hate group” by the US State Department’s Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor (Reporting Radicalism, 2020).

Ukraine is already a fragile state, weakened by an ongoing military conflict on its soil and through its own corruption and resulting poor economy. Azov and similar groups are seen as the “enforcers of the popular will, defenders of the nation against Russian encroachment from the East and liberal values from the West” (Roussinos, 2019, para. 8). As Azov has expanded from a volunteer militia into a “wide-ranging infrastructure of civil and military groups,” it has furthered its presence in Ukrainian society and public life. The mainstreaming of Azov’s message, by shedding some of its more radical components on the surface and denying neo-nazi connections, will only allow it to further its appeal and increase recruitment. All of this is in the context of a general rise in nationalist sentiment, anti-semitic incidents, and increasing use of violence against political opponents, which poses an imminent danger to the people and state of Ukraine.

Article from September 2021

alright ivan, let's get you to bed.

 

[TUFNewb]

I agree with most of your post actually. But I think a bit more blame should be placed on the founders / funders of Azov. The former ogliarch governors of the 2 regions of the donbas bare a lot of responsibility in my opinion.. but yes fuck Russia for invading.



And yes all nazis can get fucked lol

I don't like them either but they are just a nasty symptom of the very deadly disease that is Russian irredentism. They'd be trying to take back the crown jewel of their empire no matter what. Nazis or no nazis. Oligarchy or whatever system Ukraine has.. They just can't get over the time long ago they controlled a big chunk of the worlds land mass for a brief moment in time lol. They're like heroine addicts chasing that first high even knowing damn will they'll never be able to attain it and it is slowly killing them.

 

[Anewt]

It's not my stash, it's from my local shop .
I will not deny that in the early days people panicked and grabbed sugar and buckwheat - the same thing happened in the early days of the covid epidemic. But now everyone has stocked up enough at home <Lmaoo>, and everything is in order in the stores again, as you can see in the photo.

Don't worry, people went crazy here over toilet paper... plenty of brawls .. short memory for some I guess

 

[Anewt]

I don't like them either but they are just a nasty symptom of the very deadly disease that is Russian irredentism. They'd be trying to take back the crown jewel of their empire no matter what. Nazis or no nazis. Oligarchy or whatever system Ukraine has.. They just can't get over the time long ago they controlled a big chunk of the worlds land mass for a brief moment in time lol. They're like heroine addicts chasing that first high even knowing damn will they'll never be able to attain it and that it is slowly killing them.

I differ on that opinion as I still stand by the only territory their after is donbas to be independent and Crimea to be recognised as Russian territory. But nothing wrong with different opinions.

 

[Anewt]

alright ivan, let's get you to bed.

I can hold my booze unlike you =).

 

[idrankyourbeer]

I can hold my booze unlike you =).

the only thing you're holding is big daddy vladdy's russian meat missle. you know what to do with it.

 

[Anewt]

the only thing you're holding is big daddy vladdy's russian meat missle.

Tsk tsk. Go to bed bud. You'll be on here tomorrow going " I got so drunk I don't remember what I post ". Lightweight

 

[Ruprecht]

I agree with most of your post actually. But I think a bit more blame should be placed on the founders / funders of Azov. The former ogliarch governors of the 2 regions of the donbas bare a lot of responsibility in my opinion.. but yes fuck Russia for invading.



And yes all nazis can get fucked lol

We've had Australian ex-military neo-nazis try to go and join Azov. The terrorist threat they represent is why Conor Sretenovic had his passport cancelled by ASIO.
It's amusing to see the mental gymnastics of American right-wing Putinists though, when it comes to their history of comments about nazis.

 

[TUFNewb]

I differ on that opinion as I still stand by the only territory their after is donbas to be independent and Crimea to be recognised as Russian territory. But nothing wrong with different opinions.

That's fine of course, and I do appreciate how you always keep it respectful mate. I do think you're missing a lot in terms of Russian history and doctrine, and the significance of Kiev to them with a take like that though. About how very influential political thinkers like Yevgeny Primakov and Sergey Karaganov have crafted narratives that have shaped Russian foreign policy for years. One of the narratives is of course that Russia should control the territory of the former Soviet Union, with no exceptions. That this is of utmost importance to their security and national identity/cohesion. This is what they always talk about, it is their great fantasy. These narratives are prominent in conservative political circles and shouldn't be ignored. People ignored what the Nazis said they wanted to do too.

 

[Khaiser]

We know they are bad guys. There is no great revelation to be had here that will convince people Russia is not the primary threat. Russia shouldn't start "military conflict" if they don't want bad guys joining the fight against them. I legit wish Azov success against the invaders. I really do. They are the lesser of two evils right now. It sucks but that is the world we live in thanks to Russia.


It's pretty simple:

Ukrainian nazism is bad.

Russian nazism is much worse and is actually the cause of Ukrainian nazism.

Eliminate the root and Azov will wither on the vine.

Amazing the number of people who don’t get this.