Russia/Ukraine Megathread V5

[Deleted member 585708]

Russia were paranoid that a freshwater port that could be used as an economic and militaristic hub was in jeopardy with the US-Backed coup. They already had a naval base there, after the coup they went in and made sure no one was taking it back through any avenue.
Why is Putin protecting one of his useful sympathizers? Is that a real question?

The "Denazifying" thing is just propaganda, you guys have to move on. It's old news and completely meaningless.

Pretty apparent to me he prefers having a useful sympathiser in power in neighbouring countries/territories.

I'd be more inclined to buy that he never had any intention of overthrowing the government if he hadn't already got lapdogs in multiple countries/territories.

I think it's incredibly naive to pretend he was solely worried about Russia's security.

He's not an idiot, he knew full well if the opportunity to overthrow Zelensky presented itself he'd have gone for it. There's no point commentators pretending otherwise.

You're better than that.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

The vote occurred after protestors overtook Kiev and the president fled the country to spare his life.

Allegedly to spare his life.

Initially, he tried to hang around in areas he assumed were sympathetic to Russia, except they weren't then and they aren't now.

 

[Rational Poster]

The vote occurred after protestors overtook Kiev and the president fled the country to spare his life.

He fled for his life because he started killing people and things escalated because of the violence he started.

In any case, there's been multiple elections since and they still haven't picked a Russian stooge to be their leader again.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

So are they sending only draft guys over to Ukraine and is that why
the operation is such a f*ck up ? And later send in the pro's ?

I can imagine there have to be troops left in Russia to defend the home country.

 

[Darkballs]

That quote doesn't say that the estimate has changed, just that there are several estimates being made (3000-10000+ based on the quote), which has been the case all along.

He has a hard time understanding that multiple news reports in a nation with a free press, might come up with different figures.

 

[A Lurker]

@Da Speeit what is the aim of this invasion then?

 

[Da Speeit]

Yes, a month long invasion that's stalled and failed to meet any of its objectives with countless reports of blown the fuck up russian hardware, does in fact correlate to large numbers of casualties.

And I get it kid. Your position is that anything negative of russia is biased, while the russian state media, fresh off from lying about the decision to invade less than a month ago, is now telling the truth. That isn't a nuanced position the rest of us fail to grasp. It's just stupid.

What were the objectives? Do you have any definitive outline of them, or what the same intel community that has lied though this whole thing have told you?
Putin said his main goal to was to enforce the east's independence. He currently holds the east.

I have plenty to say negative about Russia, their generals suck, they're a poorly equipped excursion force, but that doesn't mean they're a completely inept group of retards who are dying by WWII numbers in a region they mostly have clamped down. Your entire position is that "Well, so and so says" (even though they've retracted those numbers as of a day or two ago).

You lot fail to realize we've considered what you're saying and it doesn't make sense. It doesn't translate to reality. It only translates to your narrative, which is the narrative all of the professional liars you listen to are spewing at you. If I'm wrong about Putin's goals and objectives, it hasn't been demonstrated. From the jump I've said he's not going to make a major push into Kiev, there won't be mass casualties and he just wants the east and crimea. That's literally what he's asking for in negotiations.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

why not???
Per you and countless others in here, Putin absolutely determined to overthrow Kiev and displace Zelensky so why shouldn't Poland be ready? Especially harboring millions of Ukrainians who will want to take their homeland back.

i have brought this up also. But Putin has never once publicly said he wants to install a new president. That all started because of a leak from a private call with Macron. Not even an official read out of the private call, just a leak that some aide said.

People are taking leaks or what Ukrainian intel operatives are saying as 100% fact.

 

[Da Speeit]

That quote doesn't say that the estimate has changed, just that there are several estimates being made (3000-10000+ based on the quote), which has been the case all along.

A week ago the estimation was 7k which is what I said.
The floor is the bottom, bud. It was 7k a week ago. Now it's 3.

 

[Da Speeit]

@Da Speeit what is the aim of this invasion then?

Flex on NATO, consolidate Putin's image as a strongman domestically, empower the east (undermine Zelensky) and get Crimea NATO/EU Neutrality in writing (which would counter Zelenksy's campaign manifesto)

 

[Rational Poster]

lmao no it doesn't
Seeing a bunch of buned out ttanks, even HUNDREDS of them does not equate to 10,000 dead Russians. No fucking way. I've scoured the internet for footage of firefights and they're next to non-existent.

The "Western" estimates went from 7k to 3k in a week. Ukraine is claiming 15,000. Russia haven't updated their numbers in almost 3 weeks. So if Russia's numbers, last quoted at 500, are tripled, it's 1500. Let's say it's 2k. That's closer to 500 than 10 or 15k.

Stop getting played dude. Every time someone questions the ever-shifting propaganda from the west with common sense you guys go to the "RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA" Well.
You're being lied to by everyone. Russia, the US and ESPECIALLY Ukraine.

Use your own common sense. 10k Russians have not died. 15k Russians have not died. I would be surprised if it were 3. There are zero independent figures. Who is independent in this? India? They think the West's numbers are bullshit too.

Russian material loses are being independently verified online by spectators for fun using public Russian records and video/photographs from the scenes.

It's not just a few hundred tanks, it's a couple hundred tanks and over 1000 APCs, trucks, etc.

If only a fraction of those crews were killed or wounded, it's easily over 3000 casualties, if not deaths as well.

 

[Dexter]

So if Putin DOESN'T want, and DIDN'T want, to overthrow the government in Kyiv, why was his reaction to the removal of Yanukovych, who wanted to put Ukraine in massive debt to Russia, met with the invasion of Crimea that same year?
If Putin doesn't care who runs Ukraine, why is he harbouring the former President of Ukraine in Russia, under military guard?

1. President Yanukovich wrote a letter to Russian Federation Senate, asking for help and possible Russian troops entry, during the beginning of Maidan events.
2. Yanukovich was overthrown by unlawful coup, and removed from the country despite the Ukrainian constitution did not provide for such an option to remove the president. He asked for political shelter in Russia, fearing for his life.
3. In the absence of the lawfully elected Supreme Commander-in-Chief and at the request of the civilian population of Crimea, the Russian Federation sent troops to Crimea. The referendum confirmed the desire of the inhabitants of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea to secede from Ukraine, which was under the control of the illegal Nazi junta.
4. Crimea joined Russia, as per their citizens request.

Why has he spoken so openly about denazifying Ukraine, whilst making no secret of the fact he considers Zelensky's government 'nazis'?
I think you might be engaging in what they call 'revisionism'.

No, Putin stated that "neo-nazism" is incorporated into the Ukrainian political and military structures. "Azov" National Guard Regiment and Social-nationalist political party "Svoboda" being the typical examples.

 

[b34stmode]

Bro the Israelis he was talking to surely know what the Final Solution was.

True. Maybe I don’t find it demeaning since I’m not a Jew, I’ll bow out on that one and say I’m wrong.

 

[Rational Poster]

So are they sending only draft guys over to Ukraine and is that why
the operation is such a f*ck up ? And later send in the pro's ?

I can imagine there have to be troops left in Russia to defend the home country.

They're sending everything they've got and it's not working.

Raw conscripts, military cadets, regular troops, special forces and paratroops.

 

[Da Speeit]

He has a hard time understanding that multiple news reports in a nation with a free press, might come up with different figures.

Here you go Mr. Personal insult

United States has lowered the estimation of dead Russians from a floor of 7,000 to a floor of 3,000

The NYT article, which was 100% clearly bullshit was everyone's source for weeks

One such assessment found that approximately 7,000 Russian troops have been killed so far, said one of the sources. But that figure, first reported by The New York Times, is on the higher end of US estimates, which vary because the US and its allies have no precise way of counting casualties. Some estimates place the number of Russian troops killed in Ukraine at about 3,000, whereas others suggest more than 10,000 have been killed.

So the floor is back down to 3k. Like I said.

I know you guys think you're so edgy and smart with the "Russian Shill" stuff but it just kills the discourse. You're just repeating things who constantly lie and change their minds as to what the facts are say. How is that any different than RT or any other Russian propaganda? You're just as guilty as what you're accusing others of.

 

[Da Speeit]

He fled for his life because he started killing people and things escalated because of the violence he started.

In any case, there's been multiple elections since and they still haven't picked a Russian stooge to be their leader again.

Who did he kill?
Source?

 

[Darkballs]

What were the objectives? Do you have any definitive outline of them, or what the same intel community that has lied though this whole thing have told you?

I don't need to see blueprints from the Kremlin to understand that having your mechanized brigades blown up outside cities you fail to take, is a bad strategy and is likely resulting in casualties.

 

[Da Speeit]

I don't need to see blueprints from the Kremlin to understand that having your mechanized brigades blown up outside cities you fail to take, is a bad strategy and is likely resulting in casualties.

So you're just guessing.

 

[SanchoMF]

So are they sending only draft guys over to Ukraine and is that why
the operation is such a f*ck up ? And later send in the pro's ?

I can imagine there have to be troops left in Russia to defend the home country.

The spec-ops who were sent in first got railed, hard and fast.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

2. Yanukovich was overthrown by unlawful coup, and removed from the country despite the Ukrainian constitution did not provide for such an option to remove the president. He asked for political shelter in Russia, fearing for his life..

Don't just lie about it, mate, that's absolutely not what happened.

There was an uprising, things got violent, and he fled.

Once he was safely in Russia, a vote was passed by the Ukrainian parliament to remove him as he could no longer perform his duties.

Those are facts, not painted by colourful language like 'coup'.

You're never going to convince people to change their minds if you don't stick to the easily accessible facts.