International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

[SandisLL]

Also rambling about old ppl usage is not always justified. Both, Russia and Ukr prefer to use older, experienced ppl in order to deal with USSR era technique.
Jeeps, trucks, tanks, howitzers, USSR generators etc....even tractors etc stuff.
USSR era driver usually is capable to do small repairs while youngster most likely will call for service. And if you have experienced gentlemans, they if spare parts are awailable, will do job ....

 

[SandisLL]

Interesting..

Yes, actually in Ukr guns laws for civies were relatively harsh....Estonia if compare looked like Texas...

Mandatory military training ( conscription ) was casual norm in Belarus, Ukraine, Russia...during almost 100 years in row.
Also if Uni student ....they had some mandatory courses about civil defense and some military training done in Uni.

 

[SandisLL]

Interesting stuff that I sometimes was scared when pro Ukr posters laughted about T-54 and T-55 tanks : they are more usable as field guns than T-62 or even T-90 and Russia does have a lot of ammo for these....incl Anti infantry rounds.

If I wanted to use tank as self propelled gun for indirect fire support I had opted for T-54, T-55 or these Nato tanks with 105 mm rifled Barrel or Challenger ....rather than to use modern 120 mm or 125 mm high pressure smoothbore guns...

Also Maxim machine guns and Mosin rifle.
They are very durable if in good condition, for single shot in longer distance Mosin rifle
is more precise than SVD designated marksman's semi auto gun...
Had been used also in Afganistan by both sides....

 

[PEB]

So internally NATO members not including the US believe that the US is not a reliable member anymore that they realize they have to deal with Trump and American companies to become more independent in the future. The economic hit to the US will be very damaging if you pull a trillion dollars off the table for the US over the next decade thanks MAGA.

 

[mjfan23]

So internally NATO members not including the US believe that the US is not a reliable member anymore that they realize they have to deal with Trump and American companies to become more independent in the future. The economic hit to the US will be very damaging if you pull a trillion dollars off the table for the US over the next decade thanks MAGA.

Even if one buys your economic hit to US argument, what will happen to Europe in such a scenario in your opinion if Trump goes nuts and does pull out?

 

[SandisLL]

Even if one buys your economic hit to US argument, what will happen to Europe in such a scenario in your opinion if Trump goes nuts and does pull out?

Normally will fight without U.S assistance....LOL and therefore ofc also will not deplete stockpiles .....that isn't good for Ukr btw.
And if we are talking about economical effect on U.S you really will see fun.
Europe is largest U.S trading partner ....also best customer for U.S software licences and services + one from best paying weapons sales businesses customer & best area where to sell LNG for good price.
Not only this, dear isolationist, you most likely don't know ammount of properties, investments etc americans does have in europe.

Also don't hope that european banks, government's and financial institutions will not sell USD denominated active in order to exchange them for hard currency.

You are thinking that Europe is poor Village with idiots aka Kurds No2.

Make Europe Great Again, we too have isolationists thinking that our taxayers money should not be wasted for U.S weapons and LNG, that sanctions on Iran should be remowed and better is purchase chinesse, Pakistan, Iranian weapons and that russian fertilizers with discounts are good choice etc...

 

[SandisLL]

Isolationist doesn't know about economic chain.
If for example MBS is selling crude oil to europe ...and for contract for transport is used in reality Partially owned by U.S private pensions funds and investment funds money financed shipping company and using insurance provided by U.K company.....yup housites " can't impact your wallet " ...

While we have some politicians Make Europe Great Again, remowe sanctions from Iran if they will sell crude oil with discounts etc type stuff.
Also a lot of ppl thinking that it isn't worth to pay for U S LNG and weapons.....

When asked to deliver old weapons MAGA shills are crying about " our taxpayers money " LOL, while be sure to finance U.S businesses EU taxpayers too doesn't want at all and definitely doesn't needs Kurds No2 treatment....better will negotiate with China, Iran and CO.....
Make Europe Great Again, stop fund U.S lifestyle etc....

 

[SandisLL]

Ofc a lot of decision makers might see just numbers...
For example if U.S will offer to sell bomb for 100k and Xi will offer to sell such bomb for 90k some politicians thinking that world is Excel table with sums might offer: wow, there bombs are cheaper...

 

[SandisLL]

We too do have politicians like MTG and Mike in U.S. While if they will get places, it will be against U.S.
With Slovakia we already had to see outcome.
Slovakia had provided Ukraine with more than 4 000 000 cartridges for small arms and even fighter jets ( ofc old ) and SAM system & missiles + arty...elections and after this .
...Make Europe Great Again, we will not supply military aid and don't want to see Ukr in EU not alone in NATO.... this outcome.......in reality, in real life. At least they doesn't block collective assistance financing bills.

 

[PEB]

 

[mjfan23]

Normally will fight without U.S assistance....LOL and therefore ofc also will not deplete stockpiles .....that isn't good for Ukr btw.
And if we are talking about economical effect on U.S you really will see fun.
Europe is largest U.S trading partner ....also best customer for U.S software licences and services + one from best paying weapons sales businesses customer & best area where to sell LNG for good price.
Not only this, dear isolationist, you most likely don't know ammount of properties, investments etc americans does have in europe.

Also don't hope that european banks, government's and financial institutions will not sell USD denominated active in order to exchange them for hard currency.

You are thinking that Europe is poor Village with idiots aka Kurds No2.

Make Europe Great Again, we too have isolationists thinking that our taxayers money should not be wasted for U.S weapons and LNG, that sanctions on Iran should be remowed and better is purchase chinesse, Pakistan, Iranian weapons and that russian fertilizers with discounts are good choice etc...

lol talk about going off. My man all I asked was for a dollar amount, not an opinion piece on all potential doomsday scenarios. The post I was quoting quantified US opportunity cost at 1 trillion dollars. So I asked for a quantified amount Europe stands to lose. Not alternative trading partners like China, Iran and Pakistan

 

[brothir]

They are being invaded yes. But that “special operation” to “kill the nazis” Putin started didn’t have all of Ukraine in its scope only a select few regions that were inclined towards Russia. His scam of an operation was limited in scope.

So incredibly limited that they went straight for the capital but failed. What does it even matter? An attack on part of a country is an attack on the entire country. It's a criminal war regardless, and should be punished.

 

[brothir]

Russia will do it again in 5-10 years? Like there’s nothing that can be done to prevent it e.g. granting NATO membership, giving them better air defences etc.

Sound like great ideas.

We shouldn’t fund this war without a proper exit strategy. It’s gonna end up being like Afghanistan where after two decades and trillions of dollars we ran away handing the country to who we went to wipe out: the Taliban!

Actually it's Russia who's intending to topple the Ukrainian government and would need an exit strategy or a way to operate a puppet regime continuously. Everyone supporting Ukraine just need the Russian offensive to collapse, no exit strategy required.

 

[Cid]

Even if one buys your economic hit to US argument, what will happen to Europe in such a scenario in your opinion if Trump goes nuts and does pull out?

They lose money too.

Western Hegemony takes a hit and China gets a small W all because Americans are too dumb to understand the basics of geopolitics.

 

[mjfan23]

Sound like great ideas.

Actually it's Russia who's intending to topple the Ukrainian government and would need an exit strategy or a way to operate a puppet regime continuously. Everyone supporting Ukraine just need the Russian offensive to collapse, no exit strategy required.

So we shouldn’t meet a Russia who might be willing to relent now that we have funded a 100s of billions worth is resistance?

We should wait for many more Ukrainians to die before Russia reaches its quitting point?

That’s an ok school of thought to have, but I think we should prioritize lives and long term solutions (give them the NATO slot) over playing a game of chicken with Russia.

Russia has suffered a lot already and so have we by funding this non NATO member so heavily for so long. Time to end the causalities and resource drain by negotiating a deal.

 

[brothir]

So we shouldn’t meet a Russia who might be willing to relent now that we have funded a 100s of billions worth is resistance?

We should wait for many more Ukrainians to die before Russia reaches its quitting point?

That’s an ok school of thought to have, but I think we should prioritize lives and long term solutions (give them the NATO slot) over playing a game of chicken with Russia.

Russia has suffered a lot already and so have we by funding this non NATO member so heavily for so long. Time to end the causalities and resource drain by negotiating a deal.

Tell that to Putin. The invasion is on his command, and the end of it would be as well.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Ukraine’s air defence missiles are running out, Zelenskiy warns​

After weeks of intense Russian strikes, Ukraine’s president calls for artillery shells as well as more Patriot missile systems

President Volodymyr Zelenskiy warned last night that Ukraine could run out of air defence missiles if Russia keeps up its intense long-range bombing campaign.

The Ukrainian leader’s starkest warning to date of the deteriorating situation faced by his country’s air defences follows weeks of Russian strikes on the energy infrastructure, towns and cities using a vast arsenal of missiles and drones.


“If they keep hitting [Ukraine] every day the way they have for the last month, we might run out of missiles, and the partners know it,” Zelenskiy said on Ukrainian television.

Ukraine had enough air defence stockpiles to cope for the moment, he said, but added that it was already having to make difficult choices about what to protect.

He singled out in particular the need for Patriot missiles. The sophisticated US air defence systems had been vital during Russian attacks with ballistic and hypersonic missiles, and 25 systems would be needed to cover the country fully, he said.

The president also said Ukraine does not have enough ammunition for a counter-offensive against Russia but has started receiving some from partners to defend itself.

“We don’t have shells for counter-offensive actions. As for the defence – there are several initiatives, and we’re receiving weapons,” he added.

He said his country would agree to a US aid package in the form of a loan. “We will agree to any options,” he said, adding that the key thing was that the aid arrived “the sooner, the better”.

Russian forces attacked Ukraine with drones and missiles overnight, killing at least eight people and wounding 11 more in Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city. Russia had attacked with 32 Iranian-made Shahed drones and fired six missiles, according to the air force commander. Ukrainian air defences shot down three cruise missiles and 28 drones, Lt Gen Mykola Oleshchuk said. “Russian killers continue to terrorise Ukrainians and attack Kharkiv and other peaceful cities,” he said.

The Kharkiv region’s governor, Oleh Syniehubov, said that the missile strikes on the city had damaged homes, a petrol station, a kindergarten, a cafe, a shop and cars. The city has suffered extensive damage from months of Russian bombardment since Vladimir Putin launched his full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

A Ukrainian drone attack on the Morozovsk airbase in Russia’s Rostov oblast killed or injured 20 airfield personnel and destroyed six Russian warplanes, as well as badly damaging eight others, according to Ukrainian officials on Friday. Russian defence officials, however, claimed they intercepted more than 40 Ukrainian drones and only a power substation was damaged in the barrage. Neither side’s claims could be independently verified.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ence-missiles-are-running-out-zelenskiy-warns

 

[Cid]

So we shouldn’t meet a Russia who might be willing to relent now that we have funded a 100s of billions worth is resistance?

We should wait for many more Ukrainians to die before Russia reaches its quitting point?

That’s an ok school of thought to have, but I think we should prioritize lives and long term solutions (give them the NATO slot) over playing a game of chicken with Russia.

Russia has suffered a lot already and so have we by funding this non NATO member so heavily for so long. Time to end the causalities and resource drain by negotiating a deal.

Winning is a long term solution.



Military aid is substantially less expensive than the number allocated.

You're creating jobs but also getting a % of the money spent back through taxes all along the production line.

The cost assigned to a system is the replacement cost. So if you send a 20 year old vehicle it's priced as though it was fresh off the line.

Then you have munitions earmarked for decommission which would cost the american tax payer a fortune because making millions of bombs not bombs is expensive. Especially cluster artillery which is bombs inside bombs. Of which you have millions. Or 10's of millions if you're counting the bombs inside the bomb.

Crazily the weapon Ukraine wants most at the moment ATACMS is still set for the more expensive decommissioning rather than being sent.


There's money spent but it's well under the price tag



Then that has to be weighed up against potential arms sale losses by not showcasing your systems.

HIMARS has been so successful you can't produce them fast enough to fill demand.... of Poland.


So take the price tag with a grain of salt.

 

[PEB]

Norway, Britain and France know what a MAGA mess can cause and are stepping up big time and US companies get ready for a huge cold shoulder and trillions lost over decades thanks MAGA.

"
The Ukraine war and Vladimir Putin’s aggression has transformed Western security policy in countless ways. In Norway, that transformation has a new price tag: $152 billion.

Norway on Friday unveiled a 12-year, $56 billion defense boost that ranks as the country’s most ambitious long-term commitment to its security in its history. The news comes as the NATO alliance faces unprecedented tests from both Russia’s war in Ukraine and a U.S. election that could bring new strains to the 75-year-old group."

 

[Strychnine]