International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V12

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Yeah this is the core of the dispute. You don't even acknowledge the existence of pro Russian forces in eastern ukraine. Your response to my talking points is "it's not real". There's nowhere for discourse to go when we literally don't agree on the history.

History you say? Like the Holomodor when the soviet russians created a famine to genocide the ethnic Ukrainians and russification of its ethnic areas? That kind of history? The kind that is clearly tied to the events today? That enough historical context?
 
No matter what your degree is in personal attacks or not if you don't need a doctorate in history to understand history just listen to Will Hunting you Michael Bolton clone. Anyways you need a thick skin if you support Russian actions.


He most likely learned history in Belarus or Russia. They are teaching different history version personally approved by Joseph Stalin after Cold War had started in 1948/1949 th.
History books for schools and unis are specially doctored to portray very specific version of history suitable for Kremlin.
 
Btw entertainment literature too had been specially censored in order to portray historical events according to Kremlin's guidelines and to prevent " wrong ideas " to be printed.
 
Why did so many of them vote for a pro-Russian government then?

Could be corruption. Could be that things have changed.

Russia was pouring millions in swinging elections in Ukraine.

Ukrainian people found their courage in 2014 and staged a Revolution of Dignity. I will stand in my support of them and what they are fighting for.
 
Could be corruption. Could be that things have changed.

Russia was pouring millions in swinging elections in Ukraine.

Ukrainian people found their courage in 2014 and staged a Revolution of Dignity. I will stand in my support of them and what they are fighting for.

Western Ukranians did(with CIA support) consistant with their voting patterns. You'll have no problem acknowledging that but easts political opinions are imaginary. When did the Donbass co sign said coup? Oh wait they didn't they staged an armed uprising you claim was just a Russian theatrical production.
 


"
A senior Nato official has apologised and clarified his comments a day after he said publicly that Ukraine could give up territory to Russia in exchange for Nato membership and an end to the war.

Stian Jenssen, the chief of staff to the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, told a Norwegian newspaper that he should not have spoken as simplistically as he did, after his initial comments prompted an angry reaction from Kyiv.

At a panel event in Norway on Tuesday, Jenssen had said that while any peace deal reached would have to be acceptable to Ukraine, alliance members were discussing how the 18-month war might be brought to an end.

“I think that a solution could be for Ukraine to give up territory and get Nato membership in return,” Jenssen told his audience, noting that discussions about Ukraine’s postwar status were continuing in diplomatic circles.

A day later, he gave an interview to the same newspaper, VG, that had reported on his original comments. “My statement about this was part of a larger discussion about possible future scenarios in Ukraine, and I shouldn’t have said it that way. It was a mistake,” he said.

But Jenssen did not walk back the idea that a land-for-Nato-membership deal could ultimately be on the table. If there were serious peace negotiations then the military situation at the time, including who controls what territory, “will necessarily have a decisive influence,” the chief of staff said.

“Precisely for this reason, it is crucially important that we support the Ukrainians with what they need,” the official continued as he sought to emphasise that Nato members remained behind Ukraine.

Ukraine has consistently called for a restoration of its internationally recognised pre-2014 borders and is engaged in a counteroffensive in an attempt to recapture large parts of its territory seized by Russia.

Jenssen was careful in his initial comments to stress that he was simply airing an idea and that “it must be up to Ukraine to decide when and on what terms they want to negotiate”, reflecting Nato’s position that no peace settlement with Ukraine should be agreed without Ukraine.

But this was not enough for Kyiv, unhappy that Jenssen, an important figure and close ally of Stoltenberg, was even discussing the proposition in public.

Kyiv said any land-for-Nato deal would reward Russian aggression. Mykhailo Podolyak, a senior adviser to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, said: “Trading territory for a Nato umbrella? It is ridiculous. That means deliberately choosing the defeat of democracy, encouraging a global criminal, preserving the Russian regime, destroying international law and passing the war on to other generations.”

Podolyak said that unless Russia took a heavy loss in the war, it would continue to pose a long-term problem for the west. “If Putin does not suffer a crushing defeat, the political regime in Russia does not change and war criminals are not punished, the war will definitely return with Russia’s appetite for more.”

Ukraine’s position is being tested by the slow progress of its counteroffensive, which began in June. Although Kyiv has received donations of western tanks and long-range rockets and artillery, its forces have so far made only limited territorial gains against heavily defended Russia positions.

Nato put out a clarifying statement on Tuesday night aimed at cooling the Jenssen row. “We will continue to support Ukraine as long as necessary, and we are committed to achieving a just and lasting peace. The position of the alliance is clear and has not changed,” a spokesperson said.

Discussions about how peace might be achieved are unlikely to subside, particularly given the relative deadlock on the battlefield. “I’m not saying it has to be like this. But that could be a possible solution,” Jenssen said on Tuesday.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-give-up-territory-in-exchange-for-membership
 
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Western Ukranians did(with CIA support) consistant with their voting patterns. You'll have no problem acknowledging that but easts political opinions are imaginary. When did the Donbass co sign said coup? Oh wait they didn't they staged an armed uprising you claim was just a Russian theatrical production.

Where did they get all those Russian vehicles and tanks then... I wonder..
 
Where did they get all those Russian vehicles and tanks then... I wonder..

They received Russian ASSISTANCE. Wher'd the Ukranians get all the weapons you love so much? The West. Does that the Ukranians don't exist?

Big countrys support various succession movements covertly and overtly. That does not mean the movements they are supporting aren't real.
 
They received Russian ASSISTANCE. Wher'd the Ukranians get all the weapons you love so much? The West. Does that the Ukranians don't exist?

Big countrys support various succession movements covertly and overtly. That does not mean the movements they are supporting aren't real.

I mean, they're is nothing covert about the assistance, and the west actually didn't send any lethal aid to Ukraine until after Russia's invasion in 2014.

Russia was actually trying to go for the whole country back then, but they got fucked up by Ukrainian militias near Mykolaiv and suffered over a thousand casualties.
 
They received Russian ASSISTANCE. Wher'd the Ukranians get all the weapons you love so much? The West. Does that the Ukranians don't exist?

Big countrys support various succession movements covertly and overtly. That does not mean the movements they are supporting aren't real.
Lol assistance. Ukrainians got their weapons because they are the official government. Thats how it works.
 
Lol assistance. Ukrainians got their weapons because they are the official government. Thats how it works.

When the US wants to overthrow leftist governments thats not how it works.
 
When the US wants to overthrow leftist governments that's not how it works.
Now, there is actually imo a very very good point here to be made, and i've seen you brush up against it before. And it doesn't take a historian, fake or not, to see that our own history of fostering coups and other bullshit should warrant extended conversations about double standards, subversion of the democratic process, and humanitarian crisis caused/engineered by deliberate geopolitical destabilization. Frankly, we pretty much ruined Latin America, or tried to, and there are major parallels between 70 years of direct US involvement in Latin America and Russian imperialist aggression in eastern Europe. But for some reason you can't seem to hold both of those turds in your hand at the same time without wanting to throw one and chow down on the other.
 
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No shit? So youre admitting you are a hyprocite and supporting it out of spite?

I meant when the official govt is leftist or anti corporate interest the US has no problem undermining it and supporting rebels. None. The end of history crap is only convienant when trying to stop a change in leadership. French had no problem supporting the US against the official British government.
 
I meant when the official govt is leftist or anti corporate interest the US has no problem undermining it and supporting rebels. None. The end of history crap is only convienant when trying to stop a change in leadership. French had no problem supporting the US against the official British government.
What does this have to do with your excusing russian imperialism?
 
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