International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V12

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AWilder said:
I'm not reading past the second paragraph because it's full of lies. Russia instigated and invented the whole separatist movement in DPR LNR. Saying they didn't come in until later is a bold faced lie.

Gross, started the third paragraph and it's another whopper of lies. The Crimean peninsula was original full of Crimean tartars that Russians genocide with forced migration. Jesus man. Can you be any more wrong.
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It didnt invent separatist stuff, ideology was always there since fall of SU

It just gave guns and possibility to pull off some uprising stuff you are correct on that
 
Cole train said:
It didnt invent separatist stuff, ideology was always there since fall of SU

It just gave guns and possibility to pull off some uprising stuff you are correct on that
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Well, when coal mines etc were under proper oligarchs 1992-2014 th then everything was good for Kremlin.

Ofc some % of local alcoholics and toxicomans most likely didn't knew that poverty and unemployment is norm in russia and these dreamers assumed that under russia they will have USSR No2, while in reality these toxicomans and alcoholics get....wild capitalism and unemployment peaked up.
Nothing wrong, western enemies are responsible.
 
Ruthless Ryan said:
Question is where is he and WTF is he doing in a boot camp ? I thought it was crazy of him having a meeting with Putin 5 days after the the stunt he pulled. Did he not suspect a trap would be set and Putler would just "make a deal" with him? I assume this pic was meant to humiliate him and bring down his hero status he was enjoying.
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my office mate and I briefly discussed this coup attempt after it happened. she is from Turkey and said that it was a false flag coup in order to oust potential traitors and "indecisives", similar to a fake coup in Turkey a few years ago, which allowed Erdogan get rid of the opposition. I didnt think that was the case and said "lets see if Prigozhin is still alive in a week". but seeing how he is still alive, wagner soldiers are getting a pass, while many high-ranking officers are getting detained and/or arrested, it seems more and more like it was staged to remove the opposition in the military.
 
Cole train said:
It didnt invent separatist stuff, ideology was always there since fall of SU

It just gave guns and possibility to pull off some uprising stuff you are correct on that
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right, it was a separatist movement as serious as right wingers wanted to secede from America. It wasn't until Russia's little green men came with arms and manpower that they were able to do anything. But regardless of the ACTUAL FACTUAL details, everything that dork @ferrisjso was writing was complete russian propaganda nonsense.
 
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ferrisjso said:
Russia tried to avoid that situation. At the end of the day they aren't willing to let those lands go into NATO. They were willing to allow those areas to be part of a neutral Ukraine with autonomy and this was the purpose of the Minsk Accords. Instead of implementing these accords Ukraine waged war for 7 more years against LPR/DPR.

The people of LPR/DPR fought for a decade before Russia went in and before pro Russian parties were banned the elections were crystal clear the western and eastern halfs of Ukraine were polarized. Not US polarized where states like Texas and Cali have about 60% of the dominant party but like 80/90-20/10 in western regions one way and 80/90-20/10 the other way in the east.

If you look at it historically it's entirely different.

Crimea was mostly Russian too but Russia actually consented to giving that to Ukraine and Ukraine at least had a case of being made Ukraine took it back after the whole nuke thing. I don't agree with it because Russia could not risk Ukraine taking the Crimean peninsula into NATO under any circumstances but there's some "no takebacks" logic there. Russias Black Sea Fleet is there and Ukraine allowed them to stay. If Ukraine joined NATO Russia would lose access to the Black Sea. It is not as simple as going back on their word. That word was contingent on the assumption Russias navy would always be welcome in Crimea. Once that ceased to be the case it was fair game. But the other borders were drawn as an internal administrative thing by people who didn't imagine those lines would be the borders of nations. People don't understand how far east the disputed territorys are. LPR and DPR are closer to Stalingrad(the furthest the Nazis or any modern invader got into Russia/USSR) then to Lyiv in Western Ukraine. The idea of having territorys that far east potentially enter NATO from Russias perspective is batshit insane. Wehther or not you agree NATOs promise to not go beyond Germany was binding NATO has advanced not just into Russias sphere of influence but now threatens to go deep into Russia itself.

Ukraine is to Russia what Austria is to Germany. It's Russian but the people in the West have a unique history because they were not incorporated into Muscovy at the same time the rest of Russia was following the Mongol invasion. Ukraine should be a seperate country for the same reason Austria should be but it's eastern holdings were Russian Russian and wanted the opposite destiny the western part of Ukraine did. I'll grant the Russian president the US deposed was every bit a Russian puppet as Willy Wonka was a US one and that puppet won an election Lincoln style(one half of the country over the other). But the US then deposed that President moved in the opposite direction and then went to actual war with the the people(leftists) who wanted to move in the easts direction.

Kherson and Zap regions while still pro Russian weren't polarized in Russians favor quite as much. The main motive between those annexations were the land bridge with Crimea and they stretched for cities like Kherson and Mikolaeyv on west side of dneiper because they've traditionally been one of the most important shipbuilders in all of Russia/USSR. They couldn't hold Kherson but these are vital locations for a country that needs to maintain 3 different navies just by virtue of their geography. Those regions are likely getting split in a piece agreement, I believe Russias main priority is Donetsk and parts of Kharkov and Russia will accept something resembling the status quo in the other 2. The main function of those regions to Russia is the land bridge so Crimea(the home of the Black Sea Fleet) is not isolated and vulnerable to attack.

Finally the party that became United Russia started out as a US puppet meant to stop the Communists that changed their mind in the face of US agressions. The US put this regime in power and are now upset it changed its mind. They turned poor Medvedev from a moderate seeking friendship with the west to a raving alcholic threatening nuclear war more often than Kim Jong Un. Dealing with Hillary Clinton for years will do that to you.

In Moldava 1/3rd of the country broke away from the other 2/3s except Moldova didn't violently try to stop it like Ukraine. That happened in 1991 before United Russia was a thing it was the peoples choice. The tension is because Moldova like Ukraine wants to join EU/NATO and 1/3rd of the country doesn't consider itself part of Moldova. How is that Russian aggression? Russia does not want Moldova it doesn't even want to formally annex the 1/3rd of Moldova it and it's allies already control but if the Western part of Moldava wants to join EU/NATO and potentially Romania(which is part of NATO) is Russia supposed to just let that happen? How can territory with a Russian garrison Moldava doesn't physically control become part of a nuclear armed anti Russian alliance? I don't understand how one can possibly perceive that as Russian aggression? They already have controlled the territory they're being accused of trying to steal for 30 years?

Understanding history of both Russian Empire and USSR is critical to understanding Russian perspective. The conflicts in the caucuses have been happening hundreds of years.

I'm only taking the time to try and convince you because I believe you are reasonable and open to convincing I usually do not bother on this thread.
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Friendly Medvedev? Under that guy Russian army almost entered Georgian capital in 2008?

In Moldova I think it was the same as in Ukrainian - Russian army, strange deaths of military leaders of pro-Russian forces who started to publically say not very nice things about Russian government/their plans. And from I understand claimed reason of involved is the same - ethnonationalism. I saw earlier this year in one of Russian political TV show they claimed that last straw for Russia was when group of Moldavian nationalists murdered teenager for speaking in Russian on the streets (they asked him to speak in Moldovan, he refused and they beat him to death or stabbed I don’t remember).
What is kinda funny that Russians in 1990s was ok with fighting against Moldovans together with UNA-UNSO.
 
Bagatur said:
My office mate and I briefly discussed this coup attempt after it happened. She is from Turkey and said that it was a false flag coup in order to oust potential traitors.
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Pictures of said office worker? ;)
 
Feniamin said:
Friendly Medvedev? Under that guy Russian army almost entered Georgian capital in 2008?

In Moldova I think it was the same as in Ukrainian - Russian army, strange deaths of military leaders of pro-Russian forces who started to publically say not very nice things about Russian government/their plans. And from I understand claimed reason of involved is the same - ethnonationalism. I saw earlier this year in one of Russian political TV show they claimed that last straw for Russia was when group of Moldavian nationalists murdered teenager for speaking in Russian on the streets (they asked him to speak in Moldovan, he refused and they beat him to death or stabbed I don’t remember).
What is kinda funny that Russians in 1990s was ok with fighting against Moldovans together with UNA-UNSO.
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knowing russia it was probably completely made up.
 
AWilder said:
Dude, I thought you were in the army? Like this is a hilarious comment from someone who claims to be army with combat experience.
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Yeah. I thought those western tanks were going to make all the difference in this conflict. That is what you guys were saying. How western tanks were invincible and were going to kick some major Russian ass in Ukraine. The idea is to go around the minefield not through it. I think the smarter posters in this thread already knew this was going to be an issue before these tanks were ever delivered.
 
San Marino said:
Yeah. I thought those western tanks were going to make all the difference in this conflict. That is what you guys were saying. How western tanks were invincible and were going to kick some major Russian ass in Ukraine. The idea is to go around the minefield not through it. I think the smarter posters in this thread already knew this was going to be an issue before these tanks were ever delivered.
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find one post of someone saying western tanks are invincible. please.

or, shut the fuck up with these lame straw man arguments.
 
AWilder said:
Find one post of someone saying western tanks are invincible. Please, or, shut the fuck up with these lame straw man arguments.
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<45>
Yeah. Make me shut up bright boy.
Are you stupid? Read back through the pages here on V12 and V11. I'm not doing the work for you.
Find me the posts where someone is saying western tanks are so much better than Russian tanks. It is all over the place is it not?
 
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Bagatur said:
my office mate and I briefly discussed this coup attempt after it happened. she is from Turkey and said that it was a false flag coup in order to oust potential traitors and "indecisives", similar to a fake coup in Turkey a few years ago, which allowed Erdogan get rid of the opposition. I didnt think that was the case and said "lets see if Prigozhin is still alive in a week". but seeing how he is still alive, wagner soldiers are getting a pass, while many high-ranking officers are getting detained and/or arrested, it seems more and more like it was staged to remove the opposition in the military.
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I'm not sold on that as they lost at least 12 pilots and 7 aircraft which has high value at this point in the war. Not to mention this was way to embarrassing for Putin to deal with. And where is Prig? we see a pic of him wearing his undies in tent looking not very happy....I'm thinking Putin duped him in a "meeting" as not much has been hear from Wagner group.
 
AWilder said:
knowing russia it was probably completely made up.
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No it was real I just looked it up. Dmitriy Matyushin, died May 17 1990.
I also saw there mentioned other weird cases - after death of Ruslan Boyanzhiu (drunk driver hit him) nationalists claimed that driver was Russian and starting protests, fights and stuff. But in court they found out that driver was ethnic Moldovan.
It’s my transcription from Russian article I looked up so probably in English/Moldovan these names and surnames are written differently.

EDIT: but some Russian articles claim another dates of Matyushin’s death, it’s still May but another day and year is 1989. And some claim that he was 17 and others that he was 18.
 
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San Marino said:
<45>
Yeah. Make shut up bright boy.
Are you stupid? Read back through the pages here on V12 and V11. I'm not doing the work for you.
Find me the posts where someone is saying western tanks are so much better than Russian tanks. It is all over the place is it not?
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No, as usual you are doing your spin and lies. UKR had no modern tanks as Russia has the T90. What has UKR been using all this time? I'm guessing T72 variants and T80's?
 
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