Rose won’t be appreciated until she’s gone. She’s my all time greatest in WMMA.

[TheMMAnalyst]

This makes zero sense. I get it man you're a Rose hater like many but wtf. Rose fought the 2 other best ever sw fighters in wmma history knock both out n beat both twice. . you absolutely tell who is the best when they fight - HOW FFS ELSE DO YOU TELL WHO THE BEST IS? If it's not that what they fuck they fight for.

also NO it's not MMA math . Mma math is saying A beat B - B beat C ....... so A would beat C - that's MMA math man an this isn't it.

All the best fought in SW. - you can argue who the best career or accompliahments are but not the GOAT - that got PROVEN IN THE CAGE 4 TIMES!

It's not MMA Math exactly, but his point still stands.

Rose IMO isn't as accomplished as JJ - she just has a style that works well against JJ and was in her prime when she caught her when JJ was in her late prime. As noted the rematch with JJ was a war that was a split, and after she caught Zhang cold early she won a split in the rematch that I thought she lost.

Regardless she's never had a win-streak longer than 3, and we can look at how they did against a lesser fighter in Andrade - JJ won 5-0, Zhang put her out in a minute, Rose got dumped on her head and almost broke her neck then had a life and death war where she could've lost in the rematch. JJ also beat the piss of Karolina, Rose got beat-up in the clinch like she was a dummy. So she's lost to far inferior fighters that JJ styled on for 5 rounds each, where you know it isn't a fluke. Zhang made Carla look like a joke, Carla subbed Rose then made her so scared to fight she ran away for 5 rounds and lost.

Also most of Rose's fights aren't that great in entertainment value - she's had some great performances against JJ/Zhang, but outside of that and especially late in her career she's had some real stinkers, something Zhang/JJ never had even in losses. I think Zhang has a chance to surpass Rose as well with a few more title wins.

This is all just subjective opinion though, it's definitely debatable, you can't say it's inarguable that "Rose is the best".....unless you're Pat Barry.

 

[Ser das Trevas]

I'm sexually attracted to Rose.

 

[Ibm]

War Rose. She will continue to make rockets:

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I'm sexually attracted to Rose.

Log off Pat!

 

[Luffy]

I think you’re catastrophising a bit there, no need to be eratic.

Weili would give you a hug if she could.

That's true... But Weili made some excuses for her loss. It's rare to find a fighter saying the other one was simply better and leave it at that.

 

[Luffy]

You're taking my posts out of context, to "use against me", but you're leaving parts out just like a typical POS. I said "Rose kind of sucks now", Valentina and Nunes became boring because they stopped trying to finish their opponents, as in they used to be a lot better to watch. I said Juliana Pena's striking was comically bad, not herself overall. If you don't disagree then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which is fucking stupid and a waste of time.

Well, does Jiri Prochazka striking suck? In comparison to Poatan, most elite male MMA fighters' striking sucks. It's not that their striking are bad, it's just that there are areas of specialty. Erin's striking isn't her strong suit, but she managed to improve to make Rose resort to clinch with strikes only, so it is developing. You don't need to be an exceptional striker to stand out as an elite mma fighter if you have another area that excels --- Khabib form example

 

[Luffy]

JJ should have won the second fight and clearly underestimated Rose's power, not her elite footwork lol.

Jon Jones in the first place couldn't even fight Rose... That's something ridiculous to speculate.

Ps: I know it's Joanna you guys been referring, just joking since JJ without context (which isn't the case here) will always mean Jon Jones to me lulz

 

[Luffy]

Rose always kind of sucked though in the way she sucks now, she’s always been a defense first outfighter that mentally cracked under pressure, it’s just gotten worse and worse over time.

Valentina and Nunes didn’t ever stop trying to finish opponents, they just fought higher level opposition which made it difficult to do with their styles (Valentina average kickboxer that is actually a great grappler, Nunes always worried about gassing so if you don’t go after her she coasts).

Peña is relatively bad everywhere, she got armbarred by a smaller Val and guillotine’d by GDR or all people. She’s tough as shit though and with just aggression and a few tools makes up for it somehow.

I’m just trying to get you to understand the context of why they are bad is because it’s WMMA, where the skill/athleticism barrier is incredibly low to entry and there is barely any elite talent, even by female standards.

Sorry for taking you out of context to make my point.

Disagree. Actually, fighters have these moments of impressive performances, but many drop their "craziness" in going for the finish down late their career. Like Jon Jones when fighting Thiago Santos and Reyes. He didn't fight with that urgency, he fought more like not to lose... And a lot of that has to do with being more cautious due to brain damage --- Jon Jones said so himself about the CTE thing. It's not women exclusive at all.

 

[Luffy]

Rose has never had more than 3 wins in a row, she's never defended the title against anyone except the person she won it from, she has a 2:1 win/loss ratio, and her bad fights are REALLY bad. You're basically saying she's your all-time greatest because she had two unexpected KOs against champions, because there's not a whole lot else going for her on her resume.

No, the second battle vs Joanna was a decision one in which she fought brilliantly. Her second win vs Weili was also by decision in which she slightly edged out Weili in another pretty good fight, so your assessment isn't quite right.

 

[Thepaintbucket]

Rose is an awesome fighter when she is on point. But thats always been the problem though throughout her career. As much as she's been able to rise to the occasion, Rose also has dropped the ball equally as bad. Fights where she should have won Rose somehow manages to lose them lol.

Her striking style it is gracefully beautiful. Lots of finesse to it. Strikers like JJ and Weli were having such a hard time trying to figure out her patterns with minimum successful.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Disagree. Actually, fighters have these moments of impressive performances, but many drop their "craziness" in going for the finish down late their career. Like Jon Jones when fighting Thiago Santos and Reyes. He didn't fight with that urgency, he fought more like not to lose... And a lot of that has to do with being more cautious due to brain damage --- Jon Jones said so himself about the CTE thing. It's not women exclusive at all.

The best way to win a fight is to finish your opponent - it eliminates risk to you and the chance of getting fucked by the judges.

Many champions adopted "safer" styles because they knew they had all the money/leverage as champ (GSP/Aldo/etc.) but that also coincided with them declining physically, as well as fighting better competition that had seen their entire games and been planning how to beat it for a decade.

Jones was heavily physically declined and unmotivated by the time he fought Santos/Reyes, who were just as long, faster, and better strikers. Jones basically didn't know what to do to counter them until he just eventually figured out a way - he obliterated Santos knees with side/oblique kicks so he couldn't move around much and Reyes gassed hard trying to hit and run so much that he eventually to walked down (he still should've got the decision but I see why he didn't in a certain light).

The examples I gave of these female champs (Valentina/Nunes) feature some elements of this as well, so it's not a lightning in a bottle scenario.

I don't think it has anything to do about being cautious about brain damage though, you are really jumping to conclusions on that one.

 

[Luffy]

The best way to win a fight is to finish your opponent - it eliminates risk to you and the chance of getting fucked by the judges.

Many champions adopted "safer" styles because they knew they had all the money/leverage as champ (GSP/Aldo/etc.) but that also coincided with them declining physically, as well as fighting better competition that had seen their entire games and been planning how to beat it for a decade.

Jones was heavily physically declined and unmotivated by the time he fought Santos/Reyes, who were just as long, faster, and better strikers. Jones basically didn't know what to do to counter them until he just eventually figured out a way - he obliterated Santos knees with side/oblique kicks so he couldn't move around much and Reyes gassed hard trying to hit and run so much that he eventually to walked down (he still should've got the decision but I see why he didn't in a certain light).

The examples I gave of these female champs (Valentina/Nunes) feature some elements of this as well, so it's not a lightning in a bottle scenario.

I don't think it has anything to do about being cautious about brain damage though, you are really jumping to conclusions on that one.

Well, what you said about Jon Jones can just as well apply to the female fighters --- they weren't physically on their prime, their hunger isn't the same as when they were younger, new athletes that bring in new skills, that have better stamina, that have analysed the older ones' fights over and over and so coaches are always bringing new strategies to handle what others could not... it's not like it is only applied to men.

Jon Jones said that Thiago Santos was trying to give him brain damage in that fight and take years of his life, so if fucking up his knees are a trade off for that, he doesn't care if he limps for the rest of his life. Recently, he said that he'd get really mad when he'd get home and have concussions, thinking he did something wrong through ought his career --- emphasizing how being hit over and over takes away an opponents ability to counter simple things they'd be able to do so easily before... So while not directly stated, it is a fair assumption that may add to his more cautious approach.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Well, what you said about Jon Jones can just as well apply to the female fighters --- they weren't physically on their prime, their hunger isn't the same as when they were younger, new athletes that bring in new skills, that have better stamina, that have analysed the older ones' fights over and over and so coaches are always bringing new strategies to handle what others could not... it's not like it is only applied to men.

Jon Jones said that Thiago Santos was trying to give him brain damage in that fight and take years of his life, so if fucking up his knees are a trade off for that, he doesn't care if he limps for the rest of his life. Recently, he said that he'd get really mad when he'd get home and have concussions, thinking he did something wrong through ought his career --- emphasizing how being hit over and over takes away an opponents ability to counter simple things they'd be able to do so easily before... So while not directly stated, it is a fair assumption that may add to his more cautious approach.

I never said that couldn't be applied to these female fighters as well, those are all fair points. I even admitted as such:

The examples I gave of these female champs (Valentina/Nunes) feature some elements of this as well, so it's not a lightning in a bottle scenario.

All I said was Val and Nunes never adjusted their styles to not try and finish opponents, it's just the opponents got a lot better and their styles didn't allow it because people think Val is some great kickboxer when she's actually a better grappler and Nunes is always worried about gassing.

I've seen all of their fights and I think it's pretty objectively true, lets just look at their recent records:

VALENTINA (defensive average kickboxer + solid wrestler/grappler)
Grasso 3 - since she couldn't finish her in the two first fights standing and got robbed by the judges in the second fight she chose to just outwrestle/out-grapple her to guarantee victory (Grasso is a good defensive grappler but shit wrestler), Val definitely fought "safe" her as a result of the last 2 fights.
Grasso 2 - definitely was trying to finish her throughout, she just doesn't have the power to one-hit someone unless they are Jessica Eye and Grasso has dangerous boxing (better striker than earlier opponents)
Grasso 1 - definitely trying to finish, went to hard throwing spinning shit and got her back taken and choked out
Santos - definitely trying to finish but Santos is huge/better athlete than most of her opponents and gave her hell early
Murphy - Bad athlete with low-level stand-up, put a beating on her and broke her easily
Andrade - Bad defensive grappler, took her down and elbowed her face in
Maia - Strong boxing but shit wrestling (good grappling though), took her down and controlled her
Chookigian - Similar to Murphy, not elite athlete and poor stand-up, beat the piss out of her
Carmouche - Dangerous vet and good athlete, did what she needed to do to win
Eye - Terrible stand-up, Val head-kicked her to shit

(finished 4 of 8 opponents)

I don't want to do her entire career, but the point is when she fights lower level athletes or people with glaring holes in stand-up/grappliing she can overwhelm them there, but she's never been a "born finisher" she just can do it when she has a huge technique advantage because her style is a defensive outside kickboxer that has good wrestling/grappling. I don't find it shocking that when she runs her A game of wrestling/grappling on good grapplers she can't finish them; when she can run her B game of stand-up on shitty strikers she does.

NUNES (power-brawler athlete with decent submission grappling)
Aldana - Beat the piss out of her for 5 rounds, didn't want to gas so cruised
Pena 2 - Beat the piss out of her for 5 rounds, didn't want to gas so cruised as best she cold
Pena 1 - Gassed hard going for the finish early, got finished in the second because of it
Anderson - Bad fighter, took her to school and destroyed her early with stand-up+grappling
Spencer - Tough stand-up fighter with solid defensive grappling, got cut early so was forced to fight safe to control the pace of the fight
GDR - Put a beating on her but almost gassed because of it and upkicked/triangled late in the fight, decided to cruise
Holm - Headkicked her to shit
Pennington - Controlled demolition, finished her in the 5th on cruise control
Valentina - Good athlete with decent stand-up and solid grappling, didn't want to gas so fought safe and cruised to a split
Rousey - Blitzed her early and got a first round KO easy
Tate - Blitzed her early and broke her nose, subbed her on the ground

(finished 5 of 10 opponents)

Agains I don't want to do her entire career, same point as Val though - when she fights people that are lower level athletes and she has a huge skill advantage in the stand-up in she destroys them, but she is afraid of gassing because that's how she loses (Pena 1/Zingano), so against fighters tough enough to take the beating she takes her foot off the gas in order to not put herself in a position to lose. She never changes her style up unless it's the result of fear of gassing.

Both Val and Amanda finished 50% of their most recent opponents, it just so happens they had to have some rematches against really tough fighters for them stylistically where since they lost the first fight they had to adjust heavily to fight safer in the rematches. Outside of those fights they've typically always fought the same and consistently and even with them fighting "safer" in rematches they still have a 50% opponent finish rate.

I'm sure Jones said that, but he already has brain damage from all the sparring and the few wars he did have with Gus 1/DC 2 and some random hard shots throughout his career (Evans headkick/Lyoto early blitzes, etc.). Jones dropped Santos with an elbow at one point and was definitely hunting him, he just was worried about the power/speed so he chose to fight "Safe" which again, that's what elite fighters do when they are against highly skilled opponents that overmatch them in one area - it's not like they don't want to finish them, they are just trying to take the safest path to do so.

Outside of Val lay n' praying Grasso in the 3rd fight I don't really see many examples of them just doing nothing and taking a W with zero risk.

 

[doggo]

This makes zero sense. I get it man you're a Rose hater like many but wtf. Rose fought the 2 other best ever sw fighters in wmma history knock both out n beat both twice. . you absolutely tell who is the best when they fight - HOW FFS ELSE DO YOU TELL WHO THE BEST IS? If it's not that what they fuck they fight for.

also NO it's not MMA math . Mma math is saying A beat B - B beat C ....... so A would beat C - that's MMA math man an this isn't it.

All the best fought in SW. - you can argue who the best career or accompliahments are but not the GOAT - that got PROVEN IN THE CAGE 4 TIMES!

Andrade is goat then? Rose got flatlines once and beat up the second time even though she "won"

 

[Streeter]

Andrade is goat then? Rose got flatlines once and beat up the second time even though she "won"

Did Andrande also beat JJ and Zhang twice?

 

[TITS]

Well, does Jiri Prochazka striking suck? In comparison to Poatan, most elite male MMA fighters' striking sucks. It's not that their striking are bad, it's just that there are areas of specialty. Erin's striking isn't her strong suit, but she managed to improve to make Rose resort to clinch with strikes only, so it is developing. You don't need to be an exceptional striker to stand out as an elite mma fighter if you have another area that excels --- Khabib form example

Just imagine the difference between getting hit by Jiri and Erin. Or Khabib even.

 

[TITS]

Rose always kind of sucked though in the way she sucks now

 

[Girubgez]

I never said that couldn't be applied to these female fighters as well, those are all fair points. I even admitted as such:

The examples I gave of these female champs (Valentina/Nunes) feature some elements of this as well, so it's not a lightning in a bottle scenario.

All I said was Val and Nunes never adjusted their styles to not try and finish opponents, it's just the opponents got a lot better and their styles didn't allow it because people think Val is some great kickboxer when she's actually a better grappler and Nunes is always worried about gassing.

I've seen all of their fights and I think it's pretty objectively true, lets just look at their recent records:

VALENTINA (defensive average kickboxer + solid wrestler/grappler)
Grasso 3 - since she couldn't finish her in the two first fights standing and got robbed by the judges in the second fight she chose to just outwrestle/out-grapple her to guarantee victory (Grasso is a good defensive grappler but shit wrestler), Val definitely fought "safe" her as a result of the last 2 fights.
Grasso 2 - definitely was trying to finish her throughout, she just doesn't have the power to one-hit someone unless they are Jessica Eye and Grasso has dangerous boxing (better striker than earlier opponents)
Grasso 1 - definitely trying to finish, went to hard throwing spinning shit and got her back taken and choked out
Santos - definitely trying to finish but Santos is huge/better athlete than most of her opponents and gave her hell early
Murphy - Bad athlete with low-level stand-up, put a beating on her and broke her easily
Andrade - Bad defensive grappler, took her down and elbowed her face in
Maia - Strong boxing but shit wrestling (good grappling though), took her down and controlled her
Chookigian - Similar to Murphy, not elite athlete and poor stand-up, beat the piss out of her
Carmouche - Dangerous vet and good athlete, did what she needed to do to win
Eye - Terrible stand-up, Val head-kicked her to shit

(finished 4 of 8 opponents)

I don't want to do her entire career, but the point is when she fights lower level athletes or people with glaring holes in stand-up/grappliing she can overwhelm them there, but she's never been a "born finisher" she just can do it when she has a huge technique advantage because her style is a defensive outside kickboxer that has good wrestling/grappling. I don't find it shocking that when she runs her A game of wrestling/grappling on good grapplers she can't finish them; when she can run her B game of stand-up on shitty strikers she does.

NUNES (power-brawler athlete with decent submission grappling)
Aldana - Beat the piss out of her for 5 rounds, didn't want to gas so cruised
Pena 2 - Beat the piss out of her for 5 rounds, didn't want to gas so cruised as best she cold
Pena 1 - Gassed hard going for the finish early, got finished in the second because of it
Anderson - Bad fighter, took her to school and destroyed her early with stand-up+grappling
Spencer - Tough stand-up fighter with solid defensive grappling, got cut early so was forced to fight safe to control the pace of the fight
GDR - Put a beating on her but almost gassed because of it and upkicked/triangled late in the fight, decided to cruise
Holm - Headkicked her to shit
Pennington - Controlled demolition, finished her in the 5th on cruise control
Valentina - Good athlete with decent stand-up and solid grappling, didn't want to gas so fought safe and cruised to a split
Rousey - Blitzed her early and got a first round KO easy
Tate - Blitzed her early and broke her nose, subbed her on the ground

(finished 5 of 10 opponents)

Agains I don't want to do her entire career, same point as Val though - when she fights people that are lower level athletes and she has a huge skill advantage in the stand-up in she destroys them, but she is afraid of gassing because that's how she loses (Pena 1/Zingano), so against fighters tough enough to take the beating she takes her foot off the gas in order to not put herself in a position to lose. She never changes her style up unless it's the result of fear of gassing.

Both Val and Amanda finished 50% of their most recent opponents, it just so happens they had to have some rematches against really tough fighters for them stylistically where since they lost the first fight they had to adjust heavily to fight safer in the rematches. Outside of those fights they've typically always fought the same and consistently and even with them fighting "safer" in rematches they still have a 50% opponent finish rate.

I'm sure Jones said that, but he already has brain damage from all the sparring and the few wars he did have with Gus 1/DC 2 and some random hard shots throughout his career (Evans headkick/Lyoto early blitzes, etc.). Jones dropped Santos with an elbow at one point and was definitely hunting him, he just was worried about the power/speed so he chose to fight "Safe" which again, that's what elite fighters do when they are against highly skilled opponents that overmatch them in one area - it's not like they don't want to finish them, they are just trying to take the safest path to do so.

Outside of Val lay n' praying Grasso in the 3rd fight I don't really see many examples of them just doing nothing and taking a W with zero risk.

Good analysis, except Shev wasn't robbed in 2nd Grasso fight

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

I posted about it in another thread:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...reatest-in-wmma.4344636/page-4#post-174293604

Even after Rose blitzed her to win the title we always saw shades of what happened in Rose/Carla 1 (broke mentally grappling) or Rose/Karolina (broke mentally in the clinch) or Rose/Jessica 1+2 (broke from pressure) or Zhang 2 (turned into a lay n' pray grappler in rounds 4+5). In the JJ rematch she put it on Rose for half the fight and when that didn't get her out of there she tried to fight safe and just got her legs kicked to shit and backed-up the rest of the fight.

It doesn't matter how much success Rose has, once things start going wrong for her she completely changes mentally, and it's only gotten worse and worse over time (I'm sure leaving Trevor for Pat Barry's elite coaching/training didn't help).

Basically she has the athleticism, the talent, the technique, but completely lacks the head-game; she either blitzes you and puts you out of there early, or gets dragged into a war that makes her more and more defensive and aversive to actually "fight" and just turns into a running point-fighter in some instances.

I can't think of a single fight where she got "better" as the fight went on, unless you count turning into a lay n' pray grappler against Zhang in the rematch (which I thought she still lost). Maybe when she destroyed Paige Van Zant way back in the day (who was so over-matched in every aspect of fighting it was comical).

Basically no matter how good she is at fighting in some regards she always sucked mentally, it's just really bad nowadays....the "Pat Barry" effect perhaps.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

Good analysis, except Shev wasn't robbed in 2nd Grasso fight

I never said she was robbed in my post, all I said was:

Grasso 2 - definitely was trying to finish her throughout, she just doesn't have the power to one-hit someone unless they are Jessica Eye and Grasso has dangerous boxing (better striker than earlier opponents)

It was a very even fight that Val was probably winning in the last minute until she got taken down and beaten up, though she still could've won it at that point. 48/47 either way or a draw seems fair, despite the ridiculous point deduction (if we scored fights by damage/as a whole I think draw would be reasonable outcome).

In the 3rd fight she chose the most conservative game-plan possible to just exploit Grasso's poor wrestling defense and just lay n' pray her so there would be no way the judges could do anything but give her the decision.