Question about tma vs mma

[panamaican]

I don‘t get this kind of relativism. How often do you see shotokan clubs sparring properly? Never. Just because one dude made it work in MMa it doesn’t validate the widely useless style.

I've seen it plenty of times. And overseas, they certainly take their karate more seriously. If you're judging it solely by the US, that's one thing. But if you judge it by the international community, it's different.

 

[JohnPJones]

Look what’s the point. People like you see what they want to believe.

You have nothing.

The guy who has a blackbelt in karate training it for 8+ years along side TKD and punches and kicks professionally doesn’t utilize any punching and kicking from either of those styles…because…reasons…

 

[JohnPJones]

I've seen it plenty of times. And overseas, they certainly take their karate more seriously. If you're judging it solely by the US, that's one thing. But if you judge it by the international community, it's different.

Tbf the international community wasn’t helped out much by the olympics

 

[JohnPJones]

"Sparring for sparring's sake".

They were perfectly fine with training the techniques in kata with partners and live. They did not see the point in sparring for sparring's sake. They saw the point in live training the kata bunkai.

There’s literally video footage from the 50s or before of people sparring.

People who were teaching or training in the 30s wrote books where they referenced sparring.

It may not have happened as often as boxer sparred at that time, but it clearly happened often enough for the rare video cameras of the time to capture it.

Here’s just one video with a few clips of people sparring long before any ‘modern’ mentality surrounding sport came to into karate.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Finally, I’m not saying that TMA technique is superior, I’m saying that the approach to its application in training may be better suited to most self defense scenarios.
Most MMA gyms out an emphasis on sport.

I think the reason why mma style training serves for self defense is the stress innoculation aspect. I have been hit, kicked, thrown, choked, and strangled so many times from so many different techniques and positions that there’s no “freeze, fawn, or flight” left in me. It’s all “fight” while staying relatively calm even when adrenalin is pumping

 

[JohnPJones]

I think the reason why mma style training serves for self defense is the stress innoculation aspect. I have been hit, kicked, thrown, choked, and strangled so many times from so many different techniques and positions that there’s no “freeze, fawn, or flight” left in me. It’s all “fight” while staying relatively calm even when adrenalin is pumping

Coming from a TMA background it’s disgusting how many people seem legitimately to think you can learn to defend yourself without having to fight.

 

[jitzmonkey]

I think the reason why mma style training serves for self defense is the stress innoculation aspect. I have been hit, kicked, thrown, choked, and strangled so many times from so many different techniques and positions that there’s no “freeze, fawn, or flight” left in me. It’s all “fight” while staying relatively calm even when adrenalin is pumping

That’s fair, have you been in a lot of fights outside of the gym, though?

 

[DoctorTaco]

That’s fair, have you been in a lot of fights outside of the gym, though?

Tons of fights as a kid, but tapered off as I got older. Haven’t been in a street fight in 20+ years

 

[panamaican]

There’s literally video footage from the 50s or before of people sparring.

People who were teaching or training in the 30s wrote books where they referenced sparring.

It may not have happened as often as boxer sparred at that time, but it clearly happened often enough for the rare video cameras of the time to capture it.

Here’s just one video with a few clips of people sparring long before any ‘modern’ mentality surrounding sport came to into karate.

I'm talking about older than that. There's stuff from the 30s onward because GF relaxed his stance because his students wanted to spar. They were doing it on their own, despite his disapproval.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You have nothing.

The guy who has a blackbelt in karate training it for 8+ years along side TKD and punches and kicks professionally doesn’t utilize any punching and kicking from either of those styles…because…reasons…

I am pretty certain that the guys with a black belt in TMAs are old school guys born before 1985. If you wanted to do striking in 1990 it was either karate, kung fu, TKD or shiny pants if you were lucky. That‘s why you had so many grown men in the early UFCs doing some shitty karate, it s because we didn t know better.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I've seen it plenty of times. And overseas, they certainly take their karate more seriously. If you're judging it solely by the US, that's one thing. But if you judge it by the international community, it's different.

Oh yeah where? Could you link me to one proper shotokan school in Germany or France please? Or western europe for that matter.

These conversations are always the same. If you are honest with yourself you will admit that shotokan is at best some crappy shiny pants. At worst it s contact free McDojos handing put belts to kids. In it‘s median it‘s very limited contact point sparring with some out of shape weirdos who are into Asian lore and spend time on useless katas.

You can always find a piece of corn in a pile of shit but you judge the pile of shit for what it is, not the piece of corn.

 

[JohnPJones]

I'm talking about older than that. There's stuff from the 30s onward because GF relaxed his stance because his students wanted to spar. They were doing it on their own, despite his disapproval.

You know funakoshi had no control over what other dojos were doing right?
Regardless shotokan was formally created in 1928, so if funakoshi began allowing sparring in the early 30s that still makes sparring part of shotokan’s training for almost their whole history

 

[JohnPJones]

I am pretty certain that the guys with a black belt in TMAs are old school guys born before 1985. If you wanted to do striking in 1990 it was either karate, kung fu, TKD or shiny pants if you were lucky. That‘s why you had so many grown men in the early UFCs doing some shitty karate, it s because we didn t know better.

People like you always have excuses. It’s freaking hilarious.

So how do you explain people like sage northcutt who have blackbelts in 2 styles of karate and is only 27?

Idk why your ego is so invested in “karate bad, karate can’t fight.”

Also good to know boxing didn’t exist in the US before the 2000s

 

[jitzmonkey]

Tons of fights as a kid, but tapered off as I got older. Haven’t been in a street fight in 20+ years

Right on
Did you train as a kid?
My only point “pro” for comes from my limited exposure; none of which was in anything to do with rigid stances or forms; but did see value in the limited techniques from kenpo, boxing (which I’m including,) and judo.
Keep in mind that my initial argument was simply that there’s something to be said for the blitzing attacks, hard “on shot one kill” punches/kicks (no high kicks should be understood,) hard judo throw/TDs meant to incapacitate, etc… but specifically regarding the approach to conflict; not so much specific technique.
I did reference the original martial application as I understood it; but a lot of what I wrote seemed to be ignored by the other user(s?)

My argument (most of which was seemingly ignored) was the following:
“If I understand correctly, it might be more about the approach to physical confrontations than the technique/training.

TMAs (as I understand them) have roots in armed combat where the emphasis is on one hit one kill techniques and bursts.

Definitely effective in a street self defense scenario if the technique is good.”

The last bit on technique was the key for me since hook/tornado(wtf ever)/etc… would be off the table.

The argument is that I can see where they’re coming from; not that a TKD world champion beats a seriously trained MMA fighter in anything that isn’t overly regulated.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

People like you always have excuses. It’s freaking hilarious.

So how do you explain people like sage northcutt who have blackbelts in 2 styles of karate and is only 27?

Idk why your ego is so invested in “karate bad, karate can’t fight.”

Also good to know boxing didn’t exist in the US before the 2000s

Well I don’t have anything against shotokan and the ryus other that it’s a very obviously inferior, traditional Asian style and that these styles have been debunked in the 90‘s. With what we know about full contact combat sport now there is no excuse to be defending that stuff so I occasionally engage with the few delusional fossils like yourself on the web.

But people like you can’t be helped, if you see some karate in Robbie Lawler‘s style. It‘s embarrassing really.

But I really don’t have anything against you and if doing your kata and horse stance hip chamber punches brings you happiness then keep it up, but you belong to the flat earthers of fighting sports and there is no justification for your existence in 2023.

 

[panamaican]

Oh yeah where? Could you link me to one proper shotokan school in Germany or France please? Or western europe for that matter.

These conversations are always the same. If you are honest with yourself you will admit that shotokan is at best some crappy shiny pants. At worst it s contact free McDojos handing put belts to kids. In it‘s median it‘s very limited contact point sparring with some out of shape weirdos who are into Asian lore and spend time on useless katas.

You can always find a piece of corn in a pile of shit but you judge the pile of shit for what it is, not the piece of corn.

I can see the pointlessness here. Believe what you want.

 

[JohnPJones]

Well I don’t have anything against shotokan and the ryus other that it’s a very obviously inferior, traditional Asian style and that these styles have been debunked in the 90‘s. With what we know about full contact combat sport now there is no excuse to be defending that stuff so I occasionally engage with the few delusional fossils like yourself on the web.

But people like you can’t be helped, if you see some karate in Robbie Lawler‘s style. It‘s embarrassing really.

But I really don’t have anything against you and if doing your kata and horse stance hip chamber punches brings you happiness then keep it up, but you belong to the flat earthers of fighting sports and there is no justification for your existence in 2023.

‘Debunked’
Yet there’s literally hundreds of people using these styles in MMA, and kickboxing…

Like I said, you’ve clearly invested your ego into this for some reason, so you don’t care about the facts, which is why you ignored my point about sage northcutt

 

[panamaican]

You know funakoshi had no control over what other dojos were doing right?
Regardless shotokan was formally created in 1928, so if funakoshi began allowing sparring in the early 30s that still makes sparring part of shotokan’s training for almost their whole history

My original post wasn't about shotokan. "Part of why the sparring for sparring's sake never resonated with old school karate".

Old school karate means going back to Okinawa. GF changed a lot of things when he went to Japan. Belts, the order of the Pinan's, de-emphasizing the grappling elements, and his approach to sparring.

 

[JohnPJones]

I can see the pointlessness here. Believe what you want.

Yep.
He’s one of those, if you can’t see a point fighting style and chambered punches in a fighter’s style, it doesn’t matter if they trained karate for 15+ years, they clearly aren’t using karate regardless of how many karate fighters are in mma and kickboxing.

 

[panamaican]

Yep.
He’s one of those, if you can’t see a point fighting style and chambered punches in a fighter’s style, it doesn’t matter if they trained karate for 15+ years, they clearly aren’t using karate regardless of how many karate fighters are in mma and kickboxing.

I think he's trolling or ignorant. If it's just ignorance, he's not alone. Too many people think that karateka are supposed to fight with the chambered punch, low stance, etc. when every text every written states that as karateka become skilled, they should move into natural stances and not the training stances. Although to be fair, some karateka don't know that either.