Question about tma vs mma

[JohnPJones]

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We seem to be talking about two different things.
It appears that you’re referencing point fighting competitions.

Think of the techniques with Tonfas and how the high blocks and reverse punches correlate with empty handed techniques.

Judo was the one art/sport that we both had in mind.
When I trained at Tripp Judo in Michigan, and under my BJJ coach in Manhattan (albeit mostly no gi and for MMA) who got his black belt in Japan before being injured in an auto accident, both instructors emphasized throwing one’s opponent in a manner that would essentially end a fight on concrete, hard ground, etc…

When we were training when I was a kid, we were assuming front kicks to the liver, punches to the solar plexus, etc… shots that one would need to be fairly well conditioned not to drop or at least slow down a bit.

You may have had different experiences than I; but the general approach that I stated was how were were taught because in Detroit and not really too concerned with competition outside of sparring “kids” from other schools; and since all our instructors knew each other, we were expected to go hard (just not stupid.)

You can aim for whatever target you want, doesn’t mean you’re going to hit it, or hit it cleanly enough to drop someone/stop them.
If it was that simple, then karate would be dominating MMA since apparently boxers, nak muays, etc, never thought about targeting weak spots…

 

[JohnPJones]

None of the above are TMA. They are all modern karate versions that are very recent. And anyways this conversation always gets derailed by delusional kung fu types who try to turn this into a matter of semantics. „Boxing, judo and Muay Thai are TMAs“. But we all know that tma refers to the shitty styles that emphasise katas and compliant sequences, along with unrealistic movements, at the detriment of sparring.

Bro…all karate styles are less than a century old…the oldest style of karate is shotokan 95 years old.

The TMA label has nothing to do with being ‘ancient’ or anything like that.

The newer styles of karate utilize all of, or most of the traditions found in the 4 main styles of karate.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Bro…all karate styles are less than a century old…the oldest style of karate is shotokan 95 years old.

The TMA label has nothing to do with being ‘ancient’ or anything like that.

The newer styles of karate utilize all of, or most of the traditions found in the 4 main styles of karate.

Maybe but I am correlating the useless ones with older history. I think shotokan is largely useless and is a shitty TMA. All the shit ryus with cat stance and open hand strikes are even worse.

The proper karate styles are all post WWII (kyokushin, ashihara, shidokan, kudo, seidokaikan,etc) and are not TMA in commonly used terminology.

 

[panamaican]

I don’t think people misunderstand it, considering point fighting rules were taken from kendo and modified, and as best I can tell that’s where the whole idea comes from.
When you’re fighting with swords a one hit kill/win mentality makes sense.

We have loads of anecdotal evidence that sparring is historically part of karate.

From videos whose quality appears to be from the 20s-30s of people sparring, to references in books to sparring from people who were training before the 4 big styles formally existed. An aversion to sparring is a fairly new development

"Sparring for sparring's sake".

They were perfectly fine with training the techniques in kata with partners and live. They did not see the point in sparring for sparring's sake. They saw the point in live training the kata bunkai.

 

[jitzmonkey]

You can aim for whatever target you want, doesn’t mean you’re going to hit it, or hit it cleanly enough to drop someone/stop them.
If it was that simple, then karate would be dominating MMA since apparently boxers, nak muays, etc, never thought about targeting weak spots…

Seems to be a disconnect here.
Most street fights in the states don’t occur between two well trained individuals.
Furthermore in a one on one scenario, they’re not typically squatting up, pumping jabs and low kicks feeling each other out, etc…
Keep in mind that the OP was referencing self defense scenarios; not sport.
Typically a few hard shots or a solid throw (maybe with an added choke) will do the trick.

Finally, I’m not saying that TMA technique is superior, I’m saying that the approach to its application in training may be better suited to most self defense scenarios.
Most MMA gyms out an emphasis on sport.

 

[panamaican]

Maybe but I am correlating the useless ones with older history. I think shotokan is largely useless and is a shitty TMA. All the shit ryus with cat stance and open hand strikes are even worse.

The proper karate styles are all post WWII (kyokushin, ashihara, shidokan, kudo, seidokaikan,etc) and are not TMA in commonly used terminology.

Shotokan is perfectly fine if it's trained properly. It's useless if it's trained to give kids something to do something after school or without real martial intent. It sounds cheesy or whatever but it's like deciding if boxing is worthless based on what happens in a boxercise class. Compare that to what happens in a gym that's producing fighters. Too many shotokan dojos aren't interested in producing real fighters/martial artists.

If you look at kyokushin's history, it's shotokan that evolved to include a more aggressive form of kumite. Shidokan and ashihara came from kyokushin so their roots are in shotokan as well.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Shotokan is perfectly fine if it's trained properly. It's useless if it's trained to give kids something to do something after school or without real martial intent. It sounds cheesy or whatever but it's like deciding if boxing is worthless based on what happens in a boxercise class. Compare that to what happens in a gym that's producing fighters. Too many shotokan dojos aren't interested in producing real fighters/martial artists.

If you look at kyokushin's history, it's shotokan that evolved to include a more aggressive form of kumite. Shidokan and ashihara came from kyokushin so their roots are in shotokan as well.

I don‘t get this kind of relativism. How often do you see shotokan clubs sparring properly? Never. Just because one dude made it work in MMa it doesn’t validate the widely useless style.

 

[JohnPJones]

Maybe but I am correlating the useless ones with older history. I think shotokan is largely useless and is a shitty TMA. All the shit ryus with cat stance and open hand strikes are even worse.

The proper karate styles are all post WWII (kyokushin, ashihara, shidokan, kudo, seidokaikan,etc) and are not TMA in commonly used terminology.

They are TMAs in commonly used terminology.
You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say kyokushin isn’t a TMA.

 

[JohnPJones]

I don‘t get this kind of relativism. How often do you see shotokan clubs sparring properly? Never. Just because one dude made it work in MMa it doesn’t validate the widely useless style.

Bruh. We have a list of 300+ karateka who are professional MMA fighters here, and the overwhelming majority of them have a shotokan background…

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

They are TMAs in commonly used terminology.
You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say kyokushin isn’t a TMA.

Well kyokushin is „a TMA but“ . It has an asterisk.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Bruh. We have a list of 300+ karateka who are professional MMA fighters here, and the overwhelming majority of them have a shotokan background…

Yeah no. Most of them don’t use karate. You ll find dudes like Robbie Lawler in that list lol.

 

[JohnPJones]

Seems to be a disconnect here.
Most street fights in the states don’t occur between two well trained individuals.
Furthermore in a one on one scenario, they’re not typically squatting up, pumping jabs and low kicks feeling each other out, etc…
Keep in mind that the OP was referencing self defense scenarios; not sport.
Typically a few hard shots or a solid throw (maybe with an added choke) will do the trick.

Finally, I’m not saying that TMA technique is superior, I’m saying that the approach to its application in training may be better suited to most self defense scenarios.
Most MMA gyms out an emphasis on sport.

It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about untrained people. They still have a tendency to move around, which means you’re probably not getting the chance to hit them square where you aimed.

That’s just not how fights happen, you get lucky shots from time to time sure, but there’s no evidence that was the intent behind the development of any style of karate. That thought process only came around after the creation of point fighting.

It’s some made up BS.

 

[JohnPJones]

Yeah no. Most of them don’t use karate. You ll find dudes like Robbie Lawler in that list lol.

How do they not use karate exactly?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

How do they not use karate exactly?

How does Robbie Lawler use karate?

 

[JohnPJones]

How does Robbie Lawler use karate?

You’re the one claiming he doesn’t use karate, despite being a karate black belt, explain.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You’re the one claiming he doesn’t use karate, despite being a karate black belt, explain.

Because he very clearly uses a boxing base when fighting. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes that he has no karate in his style.

You can see the karate in wonderboy, Rob Wittaker or Gunnar Nelson. Zero karate in Lawler. Zero. And shit you are imagining in bunkai doesn’t count.

 

[surfer dude]

How do they not use karate exactly?

Hell, GSP credited Karate for his takedown timing.

And how the hell is Kyokushin not a classic TMA? They do the 3 Ks - Kihon, Kata, Kumite. Most systems have tameshiwari too.

I'm a sandan in Shotokan. But I also competed in semi and full contact karate and American kickboxing until I was 20. I spent 3-4 days a week in MMA gyms for 6yrs in the 2010s. No matter what I do karate is part of it.

 

[JohnPJones]

Because he very clearly uses a boxing base when fighting. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes that he has no karate in his style.

You can see the karate in wonderboy, Rob Wittaker or Gunnar Nelson. Zero karate in Lawler. Zero. And shit you are imagining in bunkai doesn’t count.

Oh, so your basing ‘used of karate’ on an extremely superficial level.

So please tell me how ‘karate fights’ and what that should look like.

 

[JohnPJones]

Hell, GSP credited Karate for his takedown timing.

And how the hell is Kyokushin not a classic TMA? They do the 3 Ks - Kihon, Kata, Kumite. Most systems have tameshiwari too.

I'm a sandan in Shotokan. But I also competed in semi and full contact karate and American kickboxing until I was 20. I spent 3-4 days a week in MMA gyms for 6yrs in the 2010s. No matter what I do karate is part of it.

It’s just ignorant people who want to shit on karate, cherry picking, so they can define things to suit their opinions.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Oh, so your basing ‘used of karate’ on an extremely superficial level.

So please tell me how ‘karate fights’ and what that should look like.

Look what’s the point. People like you see what they want to believe.