International Putin signs mutual defence pact with North Korea, heralds 'New World Order' in meeting with Iranian president

[curryjunkie]

Yes, its the fault of Democrats that a corrupt, hostile autocracy decided to ally with other corrupt, hostile autocracies.

ol whippy thinks national defense of allies should be dictated by a manlet gangster..

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Putin has no room to talk here when he is literally child trafficking and funding all the Jihad Group in the ME.

Ukraine’s First Lady Olena Zelenska calls for return of 19,000 ‘abducted’ children

Ukrainian officials believe at least 19,000 children have been forcibly taken to Russia

www.standard.co.uk

- Israel powerless bottom, US doesnt has room to talk. They're suporting a genocide without precedent in Gaza!

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Honestly, all of the moral posturing bullshit is totally irrelevant anyway, and just shows how little agency these tankies apply to the actual people fighting for their lives and freedom. American foreign policy in the middle east was a shit show, therefore Russia gets to erase Ukraine. You know, because America bad not good not good guys no benevolent America reeeeeeeeeeee. And his hero Dr. Mearsheimer does the same thing: they talk right past the actual wishes and conditions of the Ukrainian people. There's no agency for Ukraine in the tankies mind, just blind moral posturing. It's like.... what offends them isn't anything we are doing, but the very idea that we "get" to be on the right side. If they actually cared about freedom and decency, they would celebrate the US doing the right thing for the first God damn time in a million fucking years.

- We need a thread to discuss that in more deep. US foreign politics has been a joke for athleast 20 years now.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Dude, it is not an explanation for their behavior. Ukraine was not a NATO nation in 2022 and it was not seriously considering it then either. Putin just increased their likelihood of joining by being a hostile actor and proving why NATO needs to still remain a thing.

And once again, I'll ask you when has NATO used militant means to indoctrinate another country into their ilk? Now when has Russia? You keep avoiding this point.

Of course NATO was considering expanding prior to 2022. This goes back to the early 2000s. Just clicking around, I found this article by Jeff Sachs, another highly respected scholar that also criticizes NATO expansion. He cites two officials saying pretty much the same thing:

In testimony to the European Union Parliament, Stoltenberg made clear that it was America’s relentless push to enlarge NATO to Ukraine that was the real cause of the war and why it continues today. Here are Stoltenberg’s revealing words:

“The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition to not invade Ukraine. Of course, we didn't sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second-class membership. We rejected that.
So, he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.”

To repeat, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

...

The same critics also choose to hide or flatly ignore the dire warnings against NATO enlargement to Ukraine long articulated by many of America’s leading diplomats, including the great scholar-statesman George Kennan, and the former US Ambassadors to Russia Jack Matlock and William Burns.

Burns, now CIA Director, was US Ambassador to Russia in 2008, and author of a memo entitled “Nyet means Nyet.” In that memo, Burns explained to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the entire Russian political class, not just Putin, was dead-set against NATO enlargement.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/nato-chief-admits-expansion-behind-russian-invasion

So that's the former NATO Secretary General, George Kennan, and two different ambassadors to Russia (one the current CIA Director) also saying the same thing. Again, this is not a crazy, marginal position.

And no, NATO has never "indoctrinated a country to its ilk" or whatever, so what? Tallying up points from one side and the other to come up with a "winner" isn't the way to analyze this.

Cmon, you are smarter than this. Should India just start invading Pakistan for that same reason? You vacate a lot of “explanations” for future invasions by even mentioning this. It is more pathetic than the NATO expansion stuff.

Nonetheless, the U.S. reason for the war on terror is very much different than the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Yes, they both involve a larger country dicking around in a smaller one. But, the Bush admin had more valid reasons

1. The moral obligation to put down Saddam Hussein, a wild dog that America raised and needed to put down. They honestly should have expelled him after the Gulf War.
2. Intervention based on the clause of Hussein’s regime being guilty of genocide, grooming terrorists, and harassing neighboring states
3. Also, the whole 9/11 thing

Russia literally just invaded Ukraine because they couldn’t have their hand in Ukraine’s ass.

Of course not. But surely going halfway around the world and destroying two countries because you don't like their government (Iraq) or how their government is handling a criminal (Afghanistan) is a bit different than border security.

And I strongly disagree that the US had stronger reasons to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Your #1 reason could also be used by Putin because he also believes Zelensky needs to be put down. And his arguments for it are better than Bush's because Ukraine is Russia's neighbor and would be letting in a hostile military alliance. WTF is Saddam staying in power going to do to US security?

We could nitpick these all day but I'll just settle for calling it a wash and say they're both wrong, which was my point all along: Iraq/Afghanistan and Ukraine are two examples of big powers criminally extending their power and spheres of influence.

 

[filthybliss]

- Israel powerless bottom, US doesnt has room to talk. They're suporting a genocide without precedent in Gaza!

you are aware that Russia indulged Hamas which provoked this “genocide” right?

 

[LeonardoBjj]

you are aware that Russia indulged Hamas which provoked this “genocide” right?

- Yes. Politics is a game of hipocrisy and not for moral grounds.

 

[Cid]

literally all three of those made it a priority to antagonize the middle east.

Exactly. Zero well planned scheme's in place.

You're pointing to the stupid years where America spent trillions of dollars fighting people in caves and mud huts and saying this is the 4d geopolitical chess master that can manipulate any country in the world. Could have turned Russia but chose not to.

I told a story about Poland playing America to get into NATO to illustrate this exact point of tankie scum arrogantly dehumanizing of the rest of us.

American governments are not smart enough to do what tankie scum accuse them of doing. It's incredibly difficult and your administrations are too stupid.


The premise of the tankie scum argument is that 4d geopolitical chess master America could have very easily balanced the contrasting wants and desires between Eastern Europe and Russia in a way that satisfied both parties and resulted in Russia becoming an advanced democracy.

But America deliberately chose not to do that because.... I dunno whatever immature @Possum Jenkins stated.



And your counter argument that they are capable of this incredibly difficult geopolitical balancing act is that you spent trillions of dollars bombing the ME?



Way to re-enforce my point.

 

[filthybliss]

And no, NATO has never "indoctrinated a country to its ilk" or whatever, so what? Tallying up points from one side and the other to come up with a "winner" isn't the way to analyze this.

I mentioned NATO's history of not invading other countries to absorb as its own....To simply show you that Russia doesn't have any viable proof to be terrified about "NATO expansionism" if they don't have nefarious intentions to invade (which they did).

Here is a simple analogy, Russia is like a psycho ex gf that is jealous of your new gf (in this case America) and attacks you (Ukraine) because your new gf called her a "slut" back in high school....It is not more complicated than that.

Of course not. But surely going halfway around the world and destroying two countries because you don't like their government (Iraq) or how their government is handling a criminal (Afghanistan) is a bit different than border security.

And I strongly disagree that the US had stronger reasons to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Your #1 reason could also be used by Putin because he also believes Zelensky needs to be put down. And his arguments for it are better than Bush's because Ukraine is Russia's neighbor and would be letting in a hostile military alliance. WTF is Saddam staying in power going to do to US security?

I am not justifying it either but you seem to use those conflicts to somehow wash the blood off Putin's hands. The War on Terror was an awful idea especially with the Bush Admin being the intervener, we can agree. But I never said it had to do with "border security", Russia's invasion doesn't either, they are just annexing shit for Putin to achieve more power. His entourage of statements undermining the legitmacy of their culture/statehood really highlights that, it doesn't take Einstein to realize that.

Also WTF is that parallel that you drawing between Zelensky and Hussein. Look up what Hussein was doing to the Kurds...Zelensky has not done anything remotely close to that, what hostility has NATO/Ukraine shown towards Russia to recognize NATO as this immense threat that warrants Russia annexing land and child trafficking Ukranian Children?

Overall, the way that you try to rationalize Putin being a colossal POS by drawing weak ass connections to American Foreign Policy is cringe.

We could nitpick these all day but I'll just settle for calling it a wash and say they're both wrong, which was my point all along: Iraq/Afghanistan and Ukraine are two examples of big powers criminally extending their power and spheres of influence.

My problem with you is that you seem to infantalize and somehow justify Russia's disgusting actions as it is a genuine response to "NATO" when in fact, there is no evidence to assume such. You indirectly keep implying "The U.S. was so mean to Russia in the 90s so Ukraine deserves to get shelled for it".....

You are a good poster but muh god, you have lost your mind here.

 

[filthybliss]

- Yes. Politics is a game of hipocrisy and not for moral grounds.

We should cut back on supplying Israel tho so I agree withcha

 

[Rod1]

I think the West considers Russia an enemy far more than the other way around.

If this was true Europe would had never disarmed, Ukraine wouldn't had been without armament.

Gotta remember, the West is far more powerful militarily, politically, economically, and even culturally than Russia.

And much less aggressive and predictable.

If it wanted to "draw" Russia in, it could

Draw in?

The International Court of Justice certainly thought it was a crime

Cool, what does the ICJ thinks of Daniel Ortega's dictatorship?

 

[Rod1]

In testimony to the European Union Parliament, Stoltenberg made clear that it was America’s relentless push to enlarge NATO to Ukraine that was the real cause of the war and why it continues today. Here are Stoltenberg’s revealing words:

Did you even read Stollenberg's words?

 

[Rod1]

Your #1 reason could also be used by Putin because he also believes Zelensky needs to be put down. And his arguments for it are better than Bush's because Ukraine is Russia's neighbor and would be letting in a hostile military alliance. WTF is Saddam staying in power going to do to US security?

America was wrong to go into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Russia is wrong for going against Ukraine.

Agree or disagree?

 

[Cid]

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Often times, the best explanations for the behavior of others is by putting yourself in their shoes.

Maybe put yourself in the shoes of the hundreds of millions of people trying to protect themselves from one of the most imperialistic empires the world has ever seen you horrible human being.

Get decimated in a world war, oppressed by a foreign regime for decades and have some arrogant cunt on the other side of the world say your wish to form defensive alliances makes your oppressor feel threatened.


Do you tell women that are the victims of domestic violence that their desire not to get hurt is provoking their abuser?

You're actively victim shaming and reducing real people and their desires of safety to stupid pawns.

You are a horrible brain washed human being.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Maybe put yourself in the shoes of the hundreds of millions of people trying to protect themselves from one of the most imperialistic empires the world has ever seen you horrible human being.

Get decimated in a world war, oppressed by a foreign regime for decades and have some arrogant cunt on the other side of the world say your wish to form defensive alliances makes your oppressor feel threatened.


Do you tell women that are the victims of domestic violence that their desire not to get hurt is provoking their abuser?

You're actively victim shaming and reducing real people and their desires to pawns.

You are a horrible brain washed human being.

But you're failing to take into account that aMeRIcA DoESn'T get tO Be ThE GoOD gUY

 

[Slapjit]

Hurray for friendship!


#FriendshipIsMagic

 

[Slapjit]

Hopefully this friendship agreement it was have become example for rest of Earth so we was all having become friend and lead world unto prosperity filled lifestyle. It was been crucial now more than ever it have been in life history. Be sure to vote for Glorious leader such as #trump to ensure strong leadership!

 

[rocketskates]

It just shows where Russia is at. They went from half the world being its sphere of influence, to basically only having petty dictatorships like Belarus and North Korea in its corner.

Exactly. It’s a country with a weak ass military, signing a pact with other countries with weak ass militaries. Yeah, they’ve got nukes…we’ve got more. It honestly just shows how vulnerable that Putin is.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Hopefully this friendship agreement it was have become example for rest of Earth so we was all having become friend and lead world unto prosperity filled lifestyle. It was been crucial now more than ever it have been in life history. Be sure to vote for Glorious leader such as #trump to ensure strong leadership!

Wat

 

[filthybliss]

Maybe put yourself in the shoes of the hundreds of millions of people trying to protect themselves from one of the most imperialistic empires the world has ever seen you horrible human being.

Get decimated in a world war, oppressed by a foreign regime for decades and have some arrogant cunt on the other side of the world say your wish to form defensive alliances makes your oppressor feel threatened.


Do you tell women that are the victims of domestic violence that their desire not to get hurt is provoking their abuser?

You're actively victim shaming and reducing real people and their desires of safety to stupid pawns.

You are a horrible brain washed human being.

America was wrong to go into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Russia is wrong for going against Ukraine.

Agree or disagree?

But you're failing to take into account that aMeRIcA DoESn'T get tO Be ThE GoOD gUY

They are treating this conflict like Naruto. Putin is just the good ole victim of his circumstances that the U.S. turned into a monster. Forget him jailing protestors, child trafficking Ukrainian Children, and getting cuddly with Jihadist groups to slaughter Chechyan Christians...Despite, advertising himself as the leader of the "Christian" world. He is totally an honest/sane actor here, the West is propagandizing and villainizing him!

But seriously, the guy flip flops his reasons for the war. At first, there was the "whole denazification" of a country with a jewish elected leader, now its NATO enlargement, and more consistently, he has gone on file for the past 20 yrs about Ukraine's statehood is fiction and belongs to him. I dunno what is next.....All these tankies seem to cherry pick the most "sensible" reason that he has proposed but even that is flimsy asf. NATO has never gone out of its way to attack an outsider so Russia has nothing to fear. I feel like a broken record saying this.

Nonetheless, this conflict is not complicated at all. I used the psycho ex-gf analogy and it fits it perfectly.

"Russia is like a psycho ex gf that is jealous of your new gf (in this case America) and attacks you (Ukraine) because your new gf called her a "slut" back in high school"....It is not more complicated than that.

 

[Limbo Pete]

They are treating this conflict like Naruto. Putin is just a good ole victim of his circumstances that the U.S. turned into a monster. Forget him jailing protestors, child trafficking Ukrainian Children, and getting cuddly with Jihadist groups to slaughter Chechyan Christians...Despite, advertising himself as the leader of the "Christian" world. He is totally an honest/sane actor here, the West is propagandizing and villainizing him!

But seriously, the guy flip flops his reasons for the war. At first, there was the "whole denazification" of a country with a jewish elected leader, now its NATO enlargement, and more consistently, he has gone on file for the past 20 yrs about Ukraine's statehood is fiction and belongs to him. I dunno what is next.....All these tankies seem to cherry pick the most "sensible" reason that he has proposed but even that is flimsy asf. NATO has never gone out of its way to attack an outsider so Russia has nothing to fear. I feel like a broken record saying this.

Nonetheless, this conflict is not complicated at all. I used the psycho ex-gf analogy and it fits it perfectly.

"Russia is like a psycho ex gf that is jealous of your new gf (in this case America) and attacks you (Ukraine) because your new gf called her a "slut" back in high school"....It is not more complicated than that.

More like Putin is a much worse, Russian version of Tony Soprano that will just eat through everything for the simple fact it exists.