Provide an argument for increasing fighter pay

[NikLuk]

Can we have a genuine discussion on fighter pay that doesn’t end up with the same generic “bootlicker” versus “idiot who doesn’t understand business/economics” arguments.


I believe fighter pay is fair because:

1) Based on reviewing the numbers, the top 4-6 fighters on a card simply bring in all of the revenue and viewership. Rani Yahya or Sodiq Yusuff on the prelims just do not bring in enough money to justify paying more than 15/15 or 25/25.

2) Comparing percentages to other sports is a big argument. One that doesn’t make sense to me. Firstly, they are team sports. Secondly, they are far better athletes usually with more competition. Thirdly, NBA players a like are OVERPAID. They should be paid less, we shouldn’t require the UFC to give their money away to people who no one knows. Plus, ufc fighters only provide like 40 min max of fight content a year - some only 10 minutes. They simply don’t produce the output to get paid well.


Bellator and PFL have different percentages as their scale of business is so much smaller that salaries naturally take up a higher share.

3) The ufc is the only reason these guys are known. The UFC markets them and promotes them. Francis Ngannou is only known because of the UFC and its brand for instance. I think that needs to be understood when people argue what “fighters deserve” - it’s the ufc who made them famous.

4. arguments of deserve are weird. I can think of 50 jobs where people are paid less than mma fighters and whom are more important to society.


I do feel like guys who are half stars but not fully stars yet - like Ortega, Yair, Gamrot etc are probably the category of fighters that might be underpaid. The ngannou’s and Conor’s get enough and so do the prelim nobodies.


Anyway I’m interested in genuinely hearing arguments for why people want to boost fighter pay. To me it just seems like underdog mentality and a bit of “fuck Dana” and fuck the man go the little guy arguments which aren’t logical.

Roughly, if no organization is willing to pay a fighter more than what they are getting payed then they are not underpaid.

If a fighter chooses a less paying alternative they generally value other things that come with that alternative more than the difference in pay (e.g. brand name, future pay bump, sponsorships, freedom to do other things).

The revenue split argument is mistaken because that is not how economics work. An employer only has to outbid the competition (in this case usually other organizations) with either money or a combination of money and perks. They are of course free to go beyond this to make the fighters more happy and sometimes they do but usually they don’t. Usually just presenting the highest offer is enough. Especially if you have the strongest brand name and fighters want to be associated with you.

 

[Sticko]

Roughly, if no organization is willing to pay a fighter more than what they are getting payed then they are not underpaid.

If a fighter chooses a less paying alternative they generally value other things that come with that alternative more than the difference in pay (e.g. brand name, future pay bump, sponsorships, freedom to do other things).

The revenue split argument is mistaken because that is not how economics work. An employer only has to outbid the competition (in this case usually other organizations) with either money or a combination of money and perks. They are of course free to go beyond this to make the fighters more happy and sometimes they do but usually they don’t. Usually just presenting the highest offer is enough. Especially if you have the strongest brand name and fighters want to be associated with you.

But you're ignoring the fact that for many years the UFC engaged in practices that were purposely aimed at preventing competition.

They bought up rival promotions and then closed them and signed the fighters to exclusive contracts which prevented them from fighting in other promotions or in other combat sports.

The UFC is not a true monopoly but it is a monopsony. They are basically the only game in town as they have far more money than any other promotion.

In the NBA there is competition as different teams have to outbid each other to sign the best free agents. While in the UFC there's no competition as the contracted fighters all just fight for the UFC and can't really go elsewhere. And further the fighters can't do anything unless they have an opponent willing and able to fight them so the UFC can keep fighters in line by offering difficult fights to guys they don't care about and the biggest fights to guys they like.

 

[Deleted member 587672]

Can we have a genuine discussion on fighter pay that doesn’t end up with the same generic “bootlicker” versus “idiot who doesn’t understand business/economics” arguments.


I believe fighter pay is fair because:

1) Based on reviewing the numbers, the top 4-6 fighters on a card simply bring in all of the revenue and viewership. Rani Yahya or Sodiq Yusuff on the prelims just do not bring in enough money to justify paying more than 15/15 or 25/25.

2) Comparing percentages to other sports is a big argument. One that doesn’t make sense to me. Firstly, they are team sports. Secondly, they are far better athletes usually with more competition. Thirdly, NBA players a like are OVERPAID. They should be paid less, we shouldn’t require the UFC to give their money away to people who no one knows. Plus, ufc fighters only provide like 40 min max of fight content a year - some only 10 minutes. They simply don’t produce the output to get paid well.


Bellator and PFL have different percentages as their scale of business is so much smaller that salaries naturally take up a higher share.

3) The ufc is the only reason these guys are known. The UFC markets them and promotes them. Francis Ngannou is only known because of the UFC and its brand for instance. I think that needs to be understood when people argue what “fighters deserve” - it’s the ufc who made them famous.

4. arguments of deserve are weird. I can think of 50 jobs where people are paid less than mma fighters and whom are more important to society.


I do feel like guys who are half stars but not fully stars yet - like Ortega, Yair, Gamrot etc are probably the category of fighters that might be underpaid. The ngannou’s and Conor’s get enough and so do the prelim nobodies.


Anyway I’m interested in genuinely hearing arguments for why people want to boost fighter pay. To me it just seems like underdog mentality and a bit of “fuck Dana” and fuck the man go the little guy arguments which aren’t logical.

I think the majority of what you said is pretty well thought out and overall, for the nature of MMA (which is massively overhyped) the fighters get a pretty decent pay structure.

I think the premise of underpayment is less about not actually getting very much and more about the cut that the promotion itself takes which (regardless of total number) is too much. Whilst boxing isn't a direct comparison for many other factors, it can be a pretty decent comparison for things like how much the promotion gets vs. the fighter. That said, and was mentioned in another thread (about boxing gate $), UFC tends to try and overhype the undercard and lower skilled fighters. Whereas boxing may be the opposite.

 

[NikLuk]

But you're ignoring the fact that for many years the UFC engaged in practices that were purposely aimed at preventing competition.

They bought up rival promotions and then closed them and signed the fighters to exclusive contracts which prevented them from fighting in other promotions or in other combat sports.

The UFC is not a true monopoly but it is a monopsony. They are basically the only game in town as they have far more money than any other promotion.

In the NBA there is competition as different teams have to outbid each other to sign the best free agents. While in the UFC there's no competition as the contracted fighters all just fight for the UFC and can't really go elsewhere. And further the fighters can't do anything unless they have an opponent willing and able to fight them so the UFC can keep fighters in line by offering difficult fights to guys they don't care about and the biggest fights to guys they like.

You should be able to buy out the competition if they want to sell.

The UFC is not “the only game in town”. You have Bellator, PFL, ONE and many more mma organizations.

I do agree that the UFC can be pricks to their fighters if that was the gist of your last part.

 

[TCE]

I need more money for lube as I’m steady beating the shit out of my little dick. That fucker owes me money.

 

[Quietus]

Very simple: when trying to bury Francis they let slip the fact that Brock Lesnar got the "biggest HW deal of all time" and the most recent they could be talking about was his last fight at UFC 200, which was 7 years ago at this point. Since then they did the WME/ESPN/Disney deal, took away fighter sponsors and added more brand deals into the product, the valuation of the company rose first to $4 billion when the deal was made, now to ~$10 billion, and in that time fighter pay nor bonuses have increased on the record.

So the argument is simple: how could a deal from 7 years ago STILL be the biggest of all time when the company's valuation has quadrupled since then? Nobody can answer that without admitting they're ripping the fighters off and doing some very unethical, probably illegal shit using the leverage they get from being the only big game in town.

I 100% guarantee you Dana White (or a stool pigeon for him) will go down for tax evasion, money laundering or some similar crime in the next decade. And people will look back and say "oh, thats why they werent paying the fighters huh.. too bad we didn't say anything sooner". If you defend the UFC's practices you are on the wrong side of MMA history, period.

 

[ImNotMirsadBektic]

Heavyweight would be full of Zion/Lebron/Giannis type of athletes if it paid remotely well. The UFC pays out 15% of the revenue to the fighters whereas it's around 50% for other major sport leagues like the NBA/NFL/MLB. I don't want the heavyweight goat to be a fat middleweight.

 

[SL1200]

People who put their lives at risk to entertain us deserve more money. That's it. That's the argument.

Oh stop it they don't do it "to entertain us". That's one of the dumbest things people say here.

 

[DestinedAussie]

Can we have a genuine discussion on fighter pay that doesn’t end up with the same generic “bootlicker” versus “idiot who doesn’t understand business/economics” arguments.


I believe fighter pay is fair because:

1) Based on reviewing the numbers, the top 4-6 fighters on a card simply bring in all of the revenue and viewership. Rani Yahya or Sodiq Yusuff on the prelims just do not bring in enough money to justify paying more than 15/15 or 25/25.

2) Comparing percentages to other sports is a big argument. One that doesn’t make sense to me. Firstly, they are team sports. Secondly, they are far better athletes usually with more competition. Thirdly, NBA players a like are OVERPAID. They should be paid less, we shouldn’t require the UFC to give their money away to people who no one knows. Plus, ufc fighters only provide like 40 min max of fight content a year - some only 10 minutes. They simply don’t produce the output to get paid well.


Bellator and PFL have different percentages as their scale of business is so much smaller that salaries naturally take up a higher share.

3) The ufc is the only reason these guys are known. The UFC markets them and promotes them. Francis Ngannou is only known because of the UFC and its brand for instance. I think that needs to be understood when people argue what “fighters deserve” - it’s the ufc who made them famous.

4. arguments of deserve are weird. I can think of 50 jobs where people are paid less than mma fighters and whom are more important to society.


I do feel like guys who are half stars but not fully stars yet - like Ortega, Yair, Gamrot etc are probably the category of fighters that might be underpaid. The ngannou’s and Conor’s get enough and so do the prelim nobodies.


Anyway I’m interested in genuinely hearing arguments for why people want to boost fighter pay. To me it just seems like underdog mentality and a bit of “fuck Dana” and fuck the man go the little guy arguments which aren’t logical.

Out of interest why are nba players overpaid? I would say in a lot of cases they are underpaid. Nearly all the top players would garner much bigger contracts on the open market.

The issues with fighter pay is strictly on percentage of revenue they are underpaid. However the UFC is the highest paying promotion and you can't go elsewhere to get more. The result of Francis leaving and if he can get more could change (for better or worse) the neg. power of UFC powers. Currently the UFC can offer take it or leave deals because they can't go elsewhere and get more.

The UFC is a private business and they aren't going to pay more than they have too because the shareholders (owners) want profit. At the end of day what business owner makes their business less profitable for no upside?

 

[DestinedAussie]

Roughly, if no organization is willing to pay a fighter more than what they are getting payed then they are not underpaid.

If a fighter chooses a less paying alternative they generally value other things that come with that alternative more than the difference in pay (e.g. brand name, future pay bump, sponsorships, freedom to do other things).

The revenue split argument is mistaken because that is not how economics work. An employer only has to outbid the competition (in this case usually other organizations) with either money or a combination of money and perks. They are of course free to go beyond this to make the fighters more happy and sometimes they do but usually they don’t. Usually just presenting the highest offer is enough. Especially if you have the strongest brand name and fighters want to be associated with you.

Yep capitalism 101 with a private business.

In fact the UFC probably pays more than it needs to maintain it's position IMO. Offering Francis 8 million a fight seemed crazy to me.

 

[DestinedAussie]

But you're ignoring the fact that for many years the UFC engaged in practices that were purposely aimed at preventing competition.

They bought up rival promotions and then closed them and signed the fighters to exclusive contracts which prevented them from fighting in other promotions or in other combat sports.

The UFC is not a true monopoly but it is a monopsony. They are basically the only game in town as they have far more money than any other promotion.

In the NBA there is competition as different teams have to outbid each other to sign the best free agents. While in the UFC there's no competition as the contracted fighters all just fight for the UFC and can't really go elsewhere. And further the fighters can't do anything unless they have an opponent willing and able to fight them so the UFC can keep fighters in line by offering difficult fights to guys they don't care about and the biggest fights to guys they like.

It seems to be slowly changing. One and PFL both seem to be able to offer better contracts for name fighters who aren't champs. I think PFL has the most chance of becoming legit comp because it has better TV coverage.

 

[Masturbin]

I do feel like guys who are half stars but not fully stars yet - like Ortega, Yair, Gamrot etc are probably the category of fighters that might be underpaid. The ngannou’s and Conor’s get enough and so do the prelim nobodies.

Maybe but Conor is underpaid man.
The guy drawing power is so strong that a faded Conor on a garbage card with him vs Cowboy manages to be the best selling card of the year.
Conor is just on a another level when it comes to drawing power

3) The ufc is the only reason these guys are known. The UFC markets them and promotes them. Francis Ngannou is only known because of the UFC and its brand for instance. I think that needs to be understood when people argue what “fighters deserve” - it’s the ufc who made them famous.

Yes some fighters don't have much name recognition before coming to the ufc and the ones that do tend to be treated and paid better.

But the ufc kinda sucks at promoting. No more world tour, talk show appearances and such.

1) Based on reviewing the numbers, the top 4-6 fighters on a card simply bring in all of the revenue and viewership. Rani Yahya or Sodiq Yusuff on the prelims just do not bring in enough money to justify paying more than 15/15 or 25/25.

With the Espn model you're per cards so you need to fill them. I guess the contract stipulates you need x many fight, main card + plelims .
So even the nobodies are usefull to fill cards.

Also for the prestige imagine paying an Ufc veterant 15/15 and a newcomer 10/10.
That's pathetic for the premier mma org in the world.

 

[DestinedAussie]

MMA is a new sport, I'd like to think that relative to the time of it's existence its made a decent amount of millionaires.

It's hard to take fighter pay talk seriously due to the sheer lack of autonomy that UFC fighters (generally) have.

Can these dudes even get fucking sponsors without uncle dana bending them over for a cut?

They can get sponsors with no UFC cut, but they can't show them on UFC events which significantly limits the benefits they can offer sponsors.

 

[Sticko]

You should be able to buy out the competition if they want to sell.

The UFC is not “the only game in town”. You have Bellator, PFL, ONE and many more mma organizations.

I do agree that the UFC can be pricks to their fighters if that was the gist of your last part.

That's why I said it's a monopsony, not a monopoly. I think the UFC has like 85% of market share or something crazy. Like if you play American football, you might have opportunities in Canadian football, arena league, XFL or USFL but basically the NFL is your best option by far.

Top fighters can go elsewhere but for most fighters the UFC is the best option by far.

 

[Canadian Kicker]

I'm never really concerned about what the big names are making. I do wish they would stop complaining about contracts that they signed though. If you don't like what your getting paid, fight out your contract and negotiate for what you think your worth.

I would like to see the entry contract at 25/25
Anybody fighting in the UFC should at the very least be in a position where that is there only job.
3 fights a year with even one win would give you 100k a year.
I know there's camp fees, management etc but a fighter should able to live off of that.

 

[Sticko]

Anyway to get back to TS's original question I'd say the main argument for increasing fighter pay is that the UFC pays out a tiny % of the revenue they take In to fighters and they could pay a lot more.

Looking at boxers vs MMA, some UFC fighters make the same or more as comparable level pro boxers but at the very top, a handful of elite champion boxers make 10x or 100x what champion UFC fighters make.

On the other hand, I'm more concerned with what the bottom level UFC fighters make. My thinking is, if UFC promotes itself as the "major league" of this sport, then a fighter who makes it to this level and fights 3 times a year should at least make enough to comfortably train full-time without needing a full-time job.

 

[DestinedAussie]

The argument that the top guys bring in ticket sales/PPV sales is invalid. Look at WWE. the lowest end of their roster still make good money. We have UFC level fighters making the same money as pro wrestlers on the independent circuit. By the time a wrestler makes it to the WWE they make in this day and age $250k check out this article.

https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/wwe-superstar-salary/

I know you are tempted to say a wrestler is at shows more but it all comes down to the Revenue. A UFC fighter might fight 3 times in a year at their 25/25 contract so assuming they win all 3 thats $150k throw in a bonus of $50k and they made $200k. Now take off manager, training/coaching, and their other expenses (not taxes as WWE & UFC still pay tax). A $250 contract for the year beats a piecemeal contract and that is the bottom. Top level guys/girls can make $10 Mil. Nobody other than Conor & Jon make that. WWE will have dozens making several million each.

UFC 2022 revenue $1.1B vs WWE $1.3B
Another article since the merger.
https://bloodyelbow.com/2023/04/04/wwe-ufc-finances-revealed-merger/

The simple comparison is WWE to UFC and they are both a product where the athletes are the product. Revenue and costs are likely fairly similar with the exception of "Labour" costs.

How many performances for WWE get from that 250K athlete? I assume a lot more than UFC fighters which means they have a smaller roster and can pay more because the pie is being cut up between less people and still maintain a shitload of profit.

 

[WarDronx]

It was an obvious troll. If not, it was an AI. Definitely not a human being.

 

[DestinedAussie]

Anyway to get back to TS's original question I'd say the main argument for increasing fighter pay is that the UFC pays out a tiny % of the revenue they take In to fighters and they could pay a lot more.

Looking at boxers vs MMA, some UFC fighters make the same or more as comparable level pro boxers but at the very top, a handful of elite champion boxers make 10x or 100x what champion UFC fighters make.

On the other hand, I'm more concerned with what the bottom level UFC fighters make. My thinking is, if UFC promotes itself as the "major league" of this sport, then a fighter who makes it to this level and fights 3 times a year should at least make enough to comfortably train full-time without needing a full-time job.

I feel the same as you. It is crazy some people are fighting in the UFC as part time fighters. Raising the bottom would improve the quality of the product more significantly than increasing the pay anywhere else.

 

[Kb7]

So much disgusting shilliage in the O.P my brain hurts..


Now for the education and counter point section of my post.


Ever fighter , doesnt just work 40 mins a year ...or whatever number you produced for content..for every one the fights they take on...it means weeks and months of preparation both on the business side to meet media obligations and sponsor obligations as well as training 2 to 3 times a day with spot on nutrition preparing for war leading up to the fight with some of the greatest fighters the world has ever seen ...all while paying coaches and training partners ETC... It cost money to run a training camp for 8 to 10 weeks at a time...

The UFC is a promotion/League ..there job is to put on the sport of MMA and Grow it ...as the leader of the sport currently its on them to continue to grow it and increasing the fighters pay will attract more athletes...thus improving there own product/promotion

Fighters dont deserve NBA or Soccer Level pay that i agree but there should never be a UFC champion having to work a regular job to make ends meet or end there careers without making 1mil a fight....the starting pay for any UFC champion should be 1 million dollars..you shouldn't be crowned the best fighter in the world and make under 1 million in the premier fighting championship of the world.

Champions are already making over a million in fact they're making "millions". People are still believing UFC fighters aren't making money, these fighters are making significantly more money than what is perceived. Adesanya is supposedly making upwards to 7mil and Khabib was making towards 10. They just offered Ngannou 8. But still believe fighters make shit.

Half the time, fighters complaining about fighter pay are not good to begin with but they want to get paid close to millions for being mediocre. You had fighters like Kajan Johnson criticizing Kobe Bryant because he believes Kobe Bryant can't relate to a fighters life, but Kajan failed to understand that Kobe had to prove and be great at his job to get the endorsements & pay to get where he's at. While Kajan is not great or good at his job in the fucking first place. Most fighters get paid accordingly to what they offer.

I never understood why people are so concerned & obsessed with what UFC fighters earn, yet they're the same ones who illegally stream fights, doesn't purchase or support any sponsors from fighters and belittle and shit on them everychance they get.