'Prometheus' and 'Alien Covenant' explained

[BisexualMMA]

Again I can't say I watch Highlander and think about the planet Karglok or Starwars and think about Vader as a whiney teen.

If anything cases an issue I would actually say its when you have a film of some quality that takes the story in a different direction, Alien 3 for example I would say is clearly a much better film than these examples yet it does clearly fuck around with the end of Aliens.

Really I think the main issue is that these films feel like a waste, we could have gotten a much better Alien film instead or indeed as mentioned potentially a better stand alone film. Prometheus does definitely have the feeling of a stand alone script repurposed into an Alien franchise film.

If anything happens with these franchises now personally I'd preffer to see a reboot, go back to the simple concepts that made, Alien, Predator, Terminator work if your going to make more films.

It's not an enormous deal for me to have crappy movies in a series or have the previous stories derailed or besmirched a la Alien 3 or Star Wars sequels, etc.

But I will say I notice a difference between all of that and series like The Godfather or Rocky, where the characters were never besmirched or made into jokes. It just feels a little better when thinking about the series and knowing things don't get ruined down the road. I do notice the lack of extra weight encumbering them.

In some cases, like Zeist / Kalgok, the besmirching of what came before is so ludicrous and insane that it's perhaps more work to incorporate it mentally than to discard it.

I recall you having mentioned the rebooting of Alien, Predator, Terminator. I mean, may as well redo them rather than run the old characters into the ground. I guess it's easier to ignore as well if it goes poorly (Point Break, Robocop, Total Recall).

But I always thought a Rambo 4-ish kind of thing with old man Dutch being brought out of retirement to deal with a new Predator was the way to go. Kind of the Blomkamp Alien sort of thing but for Predator. I also thought something like Blomkamp's Alien 2.5 would have been the best route if done with some reverence and seriousness, and not the current postmodern meta it's all a cool reference bro kind of mentality.

And also, my preferred route for Terminator was probably two or three movies starting at Judgment Day and leading up to Reese and/or the T-800 from T2 being sent back. It could really go back to the horror roots of the first film, as Skynet runs the extermination camps and experiments with skin coverings for the robots, etc. I think they really went in the wrong direction with trying to come up with new gimmicky more advanced robots for every movie as opposed to showing how they worked up to the T-800.

But barring those pie in the sky ideas, I'll take a reboot over making jokes out of the worlds or characters. I've seen Arnold embarrassed three separate times now in the Terminator and that's enough for me.

 

[deviake]

I'm able to do it but I prefer to not be put to that work. It takes some effort to pretend something didn't happen.

I have to pretend I didn't see Luke Skywalker drink walrus titty milk or creep into his nephew's bedroom with his lightsaber sticking out. I have to pretend I didn't see a Space Jockey take off his suit to reveal a blue Jason Statham.

It doesn't make the original Alien or Star Wars a piece of crap but it does put me to some extra work in order to fully enjoy the originals that I'd rather not have to do.

It's like if ten years into marriage your wife tells you she had a fivesome one time before you were married with Harvey Weinstein, Phil Spector, Jerry Sandusky and the Bagel Boss. It's like...does it really affect the quality of how the marriage has gone? No, but I'd rather not have to do the work of getting that out of my head.

I've straight head cannon murked the Alien/s & Star Wars sequels (and prequels with Alien). They leave a taint in my brain but the kinda good thing about them for me is that they're so abysmally awful and nonsensical that it makes it easier to cleanse them from my pallet. Plus, in the case of Star Wars, Lucas had nothing to do with them so I can kinda write them off as awful fan fic.

I find the Star Wars prequels terrible but at least with those I respect the ideas, what Lucas was going for, I just thought the execution was really bad. Plus, Clone Wars fixed that storyline for me.

I'm hoping Filoni and Favreau use the space time thing from Rebels to retcon the sequels out of cannon.

 

[deviake]

I mean really what you'd seen is hollywood co opting the kind of PR work that "centralist" politicians started to use strongly from the late 00's, a strong focus on tokenism and a focus on attacks on the credibility of an opponent via labling them racist, sexist, etc. Part of the way you achieve this is I'd say is to make sure you get some reaction from actual bigots, they want the alt right drawn to Starwars for example because they help give it the appearance of importance, that Rey is some feminist icon of substance and make it easier to lable any criticism as born of bigotry.

Its the sad reality that Hollywood themselves helped turn these fanbases somewhat toxic, I'v been posted on the net about Starwars for 20+ years and its only in the last 5 that I'v noticed sexism become a significant issue, still not I think were the majority of criticism is coming from but the bigotry there is was draw in by design, Disney trolled the alt right in for PR purposes turning Starwars into a "cultural war" battleground.

It does as you say seem like its just a reflex action from the kind of hacks involved in this PR work to reach for "toxic fanbase" but really I can't see this appling to the Alien prequels. Not only wasnt gender, race, etc not a significant issue within them but honestly neither was a lack of xenomoprhes and Covent was heavily criticized for trying to shoehorn them in.

Nail on head.

 

[deviake]

It's not an enormous deal for me to have crappy movies in a series or have the previous stories derailed or besmirched a la Alien 3 or Star Wars sequels, etc.

But I will say I notice a difference between all of that and series like The Godfather or Rocky, where the characters were never besmirched or made into jokes. It just feels a little better when thinking about the series and knowing things don't get ruined down the road. I do notice the lack of extra weight encumbering them.

In some cases, like Zeist / Kalgok, the besmirching of what came before is so ludicrous and insane that it's perhaps more work to incorporate it mentally than to discard it.

I recall you having mentioned the rebooting of Alien, Predator, Terminator. I mean, may as well redo them rather than run the old characters into the ground. I guess it's easier to ignore as well if it goes poorly (Point Break, Robocop, Total Recall).

But I always thought a Rambo 4-ish kind of thing with old man Dutch being brought out of retirement to deal with a new Predator was the way to go. Kind of the Blomkamp Alien sort of thing but for Predator. I also thought something like Blomkamp's Alien 2.5 would have been the best route if done with some reverence and seriousness, and not the current postmodern meta it's all a cool reference bro kind of mentality.

And also, my preferred route for Terminator was probably two or three movies starting at Judgment Day and leading up to Reese and/or the T-800 from T2 being sent back. It could really go back to the horror roots of the first film, as Skynet runs the extermination camps and experiments with skin coverings for the robots, etc. I think they really went in the wrong direction with trying to come up with new gimmicky more advanced robots for every movie as opposed to showing how they worked up to the T-800.

But barring those pie in the sky ideas, I'll take a reboot over making jokes out of the worlds or characters. I've seen Arnold embarrassed three separate times now in the Terminator and that's enough for me.

Forgot to add Terminator in there, it ends after 2 as far as I'm concerned

 

[Sir Burton]

Have any of you watched the documentary on the blue ray, Furious Gods?

FYI — it answers a LOT of your questions.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I recall you having mentioned the rebooting of Alien, Predator, Terminator. I mean, may as well redo them rather than run the old characters into the ground. I guess it's easier to ignore as well if it goes poorly (Point Break, Robocop, Total Recall).

But I always thought a Rambo 4-ish kind of thing with old man Dutch being brought out of retirement to deal with a new Predator was the way to go. Kind of the Blomkamp Alien sort of thing but for Predator. I also thought something like Blomkamp's Alien 2.5 would have been the best route if done with some reverence and seriousness, and not the current postmodern meta it's all a cool reference bro kind of mentality.

And also, my preferred route for Terminator was probably two or three movies starting at Judgment Day and leading up to Reese and/or the T-800 from T2 being sent back. It could really go back to the horror roots of the first film, as Skynet runs the extermination camps and experiments with skin coverings for the robots, etc. I think they really went in the wrong direction with trying to come up with new gimmicky more advanced robots for every movie as opposed to showing how they worked up to the T-800.

But barring those pie in the sky ideas, I'll take a reboot over making jokes out of the worlds or characters. I've seen Arnold embarrassed three separate times now in the Terminator and that's enough for me.

I'm guessing part of the issue with Predator is that its popularity has been a bit more of a slow burn than Terminator or Alien, those franchises were big right from the start were as Predator was more a decent sucess that has grown in popularity over the years.

The big issue really is who's making the film isnt it? I mean the basic idea for Terminator Salvation wasnt really that bad I'd say but in the hands of McG it ended up as very mediocre.

Thats really the problem with the whole franchise/remake culture I'd say, you look back to the late 70's/80's and really these werent dirty words, Bodysnatchers, The Thing, The Fly, Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, etc but these were all creative driven films. If anything I think the problem today is that creative directors can't just deside "I'd like to do an Alien film" or "I'd like to remake a horror classic", the rights are all closely guarded and productions tightly controlled.

The best blockbuster of the 2010's for me was Fury Road showing what is possible but even then Miller had to struggle for how many years to get that made?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I'm guessing part of the issue with Predator is that its popularity has been a bit more of a slow burn than Terminator or Alien, those franchises were big right from the start were as Predator was more a decent sucess that has grown in popularity over the years.

The big issue really is who's making the film isnt it? I mean the basic idea for Terminator Salvation wasnt really that bad I'd say but in the hands of McG it ended up as very mediocre.

Thats really the problem with the whole franchise/remake culture I'd say, you look back to the late 70's/80's and really these werent dirty words, Bodysnatchers, The Thing, The Fly, Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, etc but these were all creative driven films. If anything I think the problem today is that creative directors can't just deside "I'd like to do an Alien film" or "I'd like to remake a horror classic", the rights are all closely guarded and productions tightly controlled.

The best blockbuster of the 2010's for me was Fury Road showing what is possible but even then Miller had to struggle for how many years to get that made?

I think the True Grit remake from ~2010 is in line with the old remakes like Bodysnatchers, The Fly, The Thing. Talented directors with a passion for the project that care about the story and want to do it even better than the one before. But that's a needle in a haystack of cynical cash grab remakes like Point Break and Robocop.

Maybe it worked because there didn't seem to be any money in a True Grit remake to the suits and paper pushers. And I suppose the success of True Grit might have been what induced the slightly more cynical Ben Hur remake project so maybe nowadays we only get a pure thing once before the vultures move in.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I think the True Grit remake from ~2010 is in line with the old remakes like Bodysnatchers, The Fly, The Thing. Talented directors with a passion for the project that care about the story and want to do it even better than the one before. But that's a needle in a haystack of cynical cash grab remakes like Point Break and Robocop.

Maybe it worked because there didn't seem to be any money in a True Grit remake to the suits and paper pushers. And I suppose the success of True Grit might have been what induced the slightly more cynical Ben Hur remake project so maybe nowadays we only get a pure thing once before the vultures move in.

So its not just the case that new ideas are crowded out by "safe" franchise/remakes but that directors don't even really have the option of having full control of such films anymore. It means there is very little room for new talent to make a mark on the blockbuster market these days, to be fair to Marvel they have actually helped break though a few new names with somewhat of an individual style to them.

 

[BisexualMMA]

So its not just the case that new ideas are crowded out by "safe" franchise/remakes but that directors don't even really have the option of having full control of such films anymore. It means there is very little room for new talent to make a mark on the blockbuster market these days, to be fair to Marvel they have actually helped break though a few new names with somewhat of an individual style to them.

It doesn't give cause for overwhelming optimism...

 

[BisexualMMA]

I've straight head cannon murked the Alien/s & Star Wars sequels (and prequels with Alien). They leave a taint in my brain but the kinda good thing about them for me is that they're so abysmally awful and nonsensical that it makes it easier to cleanse them from my pallet. Plus, in the case of Star Wars, Lucas had nothing to do with them so I can kinda write them off as awful fan fic.

Yeah, as moreorless said, Alien 3 is one that's a little harder to ignore. For one, it's not so terrible that it's easy to Highlander 2 it, and on the other it really makes a point of killing off Newt and Hicks. They even filmed an autopsy of Newt. So the movie is good enough that I'd be happy with it existing as a story with different characters, but it wasn't good enough that it was worth sacrificing good characters off screen between movies (and in a nonsensical way, how did the egg get on board and also how did two things get facehuggered by it).

Star Wars prequels I guess kind of fall into a somewhat similar category. There are a few decent things like Darth Maul and Anakin turning evil in the third one, but no way in hell was it worth Jar Jar, Darth Vader having built C3PO, Yoda and Chewbacca being war buddies, the Clone Wars turning out to have been all Boba Fetts, learning that Obi Wan was "hiding" in Tattooine all those years in his official uniform, etc.

Quite a bit less effort with Highlander 2, Highlander 3, Terminator: Genisys, Terminator: Dark Fate, Die Hard 5, The Exorcist 2 to just say it never happened...

 

[MicroBrew]

What is the BLACK GOO? What does it do?


I like this response :

What is the black goo? Simple... It's liquid plot-device. There's little to no consistency with how the stuff will affect a person or a creature... It does what it needs to do for the sake of the plot.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I’ve never been too bothered by the killing off of Newt and Hicks, for a few reasons:

1. After six years the actress for Newt would have grown up considerably, and it would be hard to explain that given she was supposed to be in cryo sleep following the end of the first one. They could have recast her, but I wouldn’t have been happy with that route either.

2. Having Hicks with her for Alien 3 would have either reduced the tension for Ripley to be trapped on this world alone with all these murderers and rapists as he’d be there to protect her, or alternatively if he was still badly injured we may have had to watch Hicks get his ass kicked by those fucking Mad Max extras, which I’m not sure I would want to see him endure.

3. It goes more along the theme of the story for Ripley to be the lone survivor going from movie to movie. Having Hicks and/or Newt along with her detracts from that. It would also take away from the whole “no one believes her” aspect of these movies when she tries to warn others about the aliens and she’s largely just dismissed or ignored.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I’ve never been too bothered by the killing off of Newt and Hicks, for a few reasons:

1. After six years the actress for Newt would have grown up considerably, and it would be hard to explain that given she was supposed to be in cryo sleep following the end of the first one. They could have recast her, but I wouldn’t have been happy with that route either.

2. Having Hicks with her for Alien 3 would have either reduced the tension for Ripley to be trapped on this world alone with all these murderers and rapists as he’d be there to protect her, or alternatively if he was still badly injured we may have had to watch Hicks get his ass kicked by those fucking Mad Max extras, which I’m not sure I would want to see him endure.

3. It goes more along the theme of the story for Ripley to be the lone survivor going from movie to movie. Having Hicks and/or Newt along with her detracts from that. It would also take away from the whole “no one believes her” aspect of these movies when she tries to warn others about the aliens and she’s largely just dismissed or ignored.

I agree with most of this, which is why I simply think this probably isn't the story that should have been told for the third Alien movie.

As to point 3 - "It goes more along the theme of the story for Ripley to be the lone survivor going from movie to movie" - she was one for two (50%) at being the lone survivor after Aliens. I wouldn't say that was an ongoing theme really until Alien 3 decided to make it one.

As to point 2 - if this was the story that had to be told, Hicks could have still gone down in some dignified way. Like the cyclops in Krull halfway through or Doc in Young Guns 2. Since he's slowing them down with his injuries he tells Charles S. Dutton to keep moving with Ripley while he makes a last stand or something.

But I think Alien 3 was actually a very unnatural story to come up with following the end of Aliens. They have to basically use plot magic to kill Newt and Hicks. I think there were other directions to go aside from killing off characters to then mostly remake the situation of the first Alien.

 

[bubbleboyjones]

'Alien Awakening' is finished, it is due for release in October of this year.

Maybe I somehow missed this but do you have a source?

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I agree with most of this, which is why I simply think this probably isn't the story that should have been told for the third Alien movie.

As to point 3 - "It goes more along the theme of the story for Ripley to be the lone survivor going from movie to movie" - she was one for two (50%) at being the lone survivor after Aliens. I wouldn't say that was an ongoing theme really until Alien 3 decided to make it one.

As to point 2 - if this was the story that had to be told, Hicks could have still gone down in some dignified way. Like the cyclops in Krull halfway through or Doc in Young Guns 2. Since he's slowing them down with his injuries he tells Charles S. Dutton to keep moving with Ripley while he makes a last stand or something.

But I think Alien 3 was actually a very unnatural story to come up with following the end of Aliens. They have to basically use plot magic to kill Newt and Hicks. I think there were other directions to go aside from killing off characters to then mostly remake the situation of the first Alien.

I meant she’s the lone survivor by the start of the next film. Obviously she’s not even close to the long survivor by the end of Aliens. Mind you, at the start of Aliens she has Jinxy (that was the cat’s name, right?) and going into 3 she’s still got busted ass Bishop. So I guess one cat = one broken Android in the alien universe.

And nice Krull reference. You don’t come by those very often.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I meant she’s the lone survivor by the start of the next film. Obviously she’s not even close to the long survivor by the end of Aliens. Mind you, at the start of Aliens she has Jinxy (that was the cat’s name, right?) and going into 3 she’s still got busted ass Bishop. So I guess one cat = one broken Android in the alien universe.

And nice Krull reference. You don’t come by those very often.

Jonesy. And that cat was a punk bitch. Didn't even care when Harry Dean Stanton got his head smashed in.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

Jonesy. And that cat was a punk bitch. Didn't even care when Harry Dean Stanton got his head smashed in.

Well, Ripley didn’t call the cat a shit head for nothing.

 

[Otto!]

The writing in these movies was so awful it completely ruined whatever Ridley was going for.

It's hard to get behind and care for characters who are so fucking dumb that the first thing they do is remove their protective gear when exploring a new planet.

This. CO2 levels are normal, so let’s not worry about any pathogens that could melt our insides.

 

[BisexualMMA]

This. CO2 levels are normal, so let’s not worry about any pathogens that could melt our insides.

Audience after seeing Prometheus: How stupid are these guys taking their helmets off on the alien planet?

Writers of Covenant: Problem solved they don't even wear helmets to walk out onto the planet.

 

[TheSlothMan]

I'm guessing part of the issue with Predator is that its popularity has been a bit more of a slow burn than Terminator or Alien, those franchises were big right from the start were as Predator was more a decent sucess that has grown in popularity over the years.

The big issue really is who's making the film isnt it? I mean the basic idea for Terminator Salvation wasnt really that bad I'd say but in the hands of McG it ended up as very mediocre.

Thats really the problem with the whole franchise/remake culture I'd say, you look back to the late 70's/80's and really these werent dirty words, Bodysnatchers, The Thing, The Fly, Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, etc but these were all creative driven films. If anything I think the problem today is that creative directors can't just deside "I'd like to do an Alien film" or "I'd like to remake a horror classic", the rights are all closely guarded and productions tightly controlled.

The best blockbuster of the 2010's for me was Fury Road showing what is possible but even then Miller had to struggle for how many years to get that made?

Speaking of Fury Road, I was reading that Miller has been trying to get a sequel started, but WB are being assholes and don't want to pay him what he's owed for his work on Fury Road.

Jesus Christ WB, get your fucking shit together and pay the man.