Prime Rumble vs Jiri: Who wins?

[El Fernas]

Very disappointing that we never got Jones vs Rumble. When you’ve got a dominant champion, the super dangerous finisher is always the most interesting challenge to see. I think Jones wins but you never know.

Calling Jiri a stepping stone is crazy though. If you want to favor Rumble that’s fine, but Volkan and Reyes are both perfectly respectable title challengers and Jiri blew through them. Then he went to war with a very durable and dangerous champion and gutted it out. Crazy to doubt the guy.

I mean, he is impressive, but he suffers while winning, Rumble put a much younger Glover to sleep, other than Phil Davis who he did beat but it was a UD, all of them were taken out inside one round, i mean, Rumble turned everyone not named DC into a stepping stone, Jiri is a Killer, but Rumble was just in another level of demolition power when had room to do it, Jiri hurt Glover but didnt put him away, he did put Reyes away too, and Reyes is LEGIT, but then again, he suffered to do so, i think they would have had a couple of exchanges before Rumble turns his lights out, i could be wrong, considering we are talking about 6 years ago Rumble, his current version seems to be getting back into shape after a life threatening condition, so even if Rumble gets back into fighting form it will never be the same, no shame in losing to prime Rumble either, the man was a killer when hands were thrown.

 

[mkt]

TDD is not more than one thing in terms of ways to win a fight, dorkus. I'm glad you like Rumble. I have no stake in taking that away from you, even if I could. He is no where near where Jiri is though and this will perhaps take some time to reveal for you.

• Name-calling: check
• Completely missed the point that great striking + very solid TDD and good wrestling are more than "one thing": check
• Completely delusional based on personal bias and favorite fighters: check

You've pretty much got all of the worst of Sherdog covered!

 

[mister piscadinha]

the same people using mmath to say that rumble sparks jiri also say that jones beats rumble without a doubt, you know, the same jones that needed eye pokes galore to take glover to a decision.. mmath only works when they want it to "work"


fact is, if dan fucking hardy could go the decision with rumble, so could jiri.
and if jiri started to land on rumble, he would crumble FAST.
recency bias is working against jiri here because of saturday's fight

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I take it you missed when he fought Phil Davis, Arlovski, Hardy and Branch where his cardio looked great start to finish?

He’s more skilled than those guys though. The theory being presenting in this thread isn’t that Rumble is more skilled than Jiri but that Jiri’s poor defense will result in a quick knockout.

To me, evaluating Rumble is somewhat like evaluating Conor. If Conor is significantly more skilled than you, he can cruise to a win and not exhaust himself and tap. If you’re comparably skilled, he’s going look really dangerous for a few minutes and then (if you are still standing) start to slow down, eat shots, slow down more, etc. Poirier II is the perfect example. Nate fights as well. Conor beat them to the punch in the first round but they were good enough make him work, and once he slowed down 25% they were better than him.

I could see Rumble-Jiri looking like a McGregor fight.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

the same people using mmath to say that rumble sparks jiri also say that jones beats rumble without a doubt, you know, the same jones that needed eye pokes galore to take glover to a decision.. mmath only works when they want it to "work"

fact is, if dan fucking hardy could go the decision with rumble, so could jiri.
and if jiri started to land on rumble, he would crumble FAST.
recency bias is working against jiri here because of saturday's fight

Cmon man. You think Jones “needed” eyepokes to “take Glover to a decision”? Your position is that, absent eyepokes, Glover beats Jones, and in fact finishes him? That’s quite a take

Then you turn around and do MMA math with Dan Hardy….

 

[mkt]

Cool but assuming Hill or Jan would "blow Davis/Bader doors off" is completely baseless, man. Like wtf. I mean you can spit it but its like an extremely weak/lazy/baseless/random point to make, even by sherdog standards

While Glover has better submission than Bader or Davis, there's no way his TDs or top control as a 42-year old BJJ guy are better than Bader/Davis (both D1 wrestlers and accomplished MMA wrestlers) in their prime. Either of those guys blanket Jan to a decision, unless Bader is dumb enough to stand and trade for too long. Phil's chin is good enough to eat any of Jan's shots, and he'd eventually go to the ground if he starts losing on the feet. Prime Davis beats Jan 10/10 unless he tries to kickbox the entire fight, and Bader wins at least 7 or 8 out of 10.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Cool but assuming Hill or Jan would "blow Davis/Bader doors off" is completely baseless, man. Like wtf. I mean you can spit it but its like an extremely weak/lazy/baseless/random point to make, even by sherdog standards

Fine. You stated that they’re right where they always were at 205; my position is that they are not. I think they would be an underdog to the entire UFC top ten.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

While Glover has better submission than Bader or Davis, there's no way his TDs or top control as a 42-year old BJJ guy are better than Bader/Davis (both D1 wrestlers and accomplished MMA wrestlers) in their prime. Either of those guys blanket Jan to a decision, unless Bader is dumb enough to stand and trade for too long. Phil's chin is good enough to eat any of Jan's shots, and he'd eventually go to the ground if he starts losing on the feet. Prime Davis beats Jan 10/10 unless he tries to kickbox the entire fight, and Bader wins at least 7 or 8 out of 10.

Just to be clear, we were talking about Bader and Davis today. I agree that they (especially Davis) at their peak were difficult feast or famine wrestlers who would submit a boring 30-27 against you if your TDD wasn’t on point, regardless of where you ranked.

When the takedowns weren’t available (see Bader vs Machida or Rumble) they got bludgeoned, but when they were available they’d generally cruise.

 

[mister piscadinha]

Cmon man. You think Jones “needed” eyepokes to “take Glover to a decision”? Your position is that, absent eyepokes, Glover beats Jones, and in fact finishes him? That’s quite a take

Then you turn around and do MMA math with Dan Hardy….

well, if jones needed to cheat constantly to win fights, then he's the one who lacks confidence in himself.

and no, i'm not doing the same thing at all
i only used hardy as an example of rumble not being this god given, nuclear hand-hammer who will knock everybody out whenever he wants.

 

[10000yearsold]

• Name-calling: check
• Completely missed the point that great striking + very solid TDD and good wrestling are more than "one thing": check
• Completely delusional based on personal bias and favorite fighters: check

You've pretty much got all of the worst of Sherdog covered!

that was a playful name call. there's nothing hurtful or malicious about "dorkus". wear it proudly. it rarely emerges, but has today in gracing the authorship of your selected works on the people-who-need-to-get-out-more-often karate forum about how a mostly retired fighter that was most famously a one-trick pony knock out artist that got exposed by absolutely everyone with a deeper skillset that he didn't knock out would be the present day champion.

the fact that rumble is even on your radar of considerations for who would be a more appropriate champion is so far out of left field I have to wonder how many big sweaty topless Johnson posters you have surrounding you in your cubicle of doom.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I mean, he is impressive, but he suffers while winning, Rumble put a much younger Glover to sleep, other than Phil Davis who he did beat but it was a UD, all of them were taken out inside one round, i mean, Rumble turned everyone not named DC into a stepping stone, Jiri is a Killer, but Rumble was just in another level of demolition power when had room to do it, Jiri hurt Glover but didnt put him away, he did put Reyes away too, and Reyes is LEGIT, but then again, he suffered to do so, i think they would have had a couple of exchanges before Rumble turns his lights out, i could be wrong, considering we are talking about 6 years ago Rumble, his current version seems to be getting back into shape after a life threatening condition, so even if Rumble gets back into fighting form it will never be the same, no shame in losing to prime Rumble either, the man was a killer when hands were thrown.

Rumble is more dangerous than Jiri. When he wins, it’s often big. He’s like McGregor or Derrick Lewis.

Jiri is a big finisher too but you’re right that he goes to war to get it, he doesn’t just bulldoze guys while taking no damage.

Feast or famine guys are always hard to run hypotheticals for.

 

[pankrat]

Fine. You stated that they’re right where they always were at 205; my position is that they are not. I think they would be an underdog to the entire UFC top ten.

Cool.
I wonder if you believe so because you feel Davis/Bader have slowed down considerably or you just feel like Hill's grappling prowess is solid enough to beat any version of them.

Regardless, I doubt oddsmakers would support your claim. I highly doubt even you think they would.
Rankings - from any source you want to look at - dont even remotely support such claim, that's for sure.

Usually, when you make outlandish claims like that you are supposed to provide some kind of base or argument for it. Otherwise you just come across like an textbook UFC shill and 200% sure you would not make such claim if Hill fought under a different banner.

 

[pankrat]

While Glover has better submission than Bader or Davis, there's no way his TDs or top control as a 42-year old BJJ guy are better than Bader/Davis (both D1 wrestlers and accomplished MMA wrestlers) in their prime. Either of those guys blanket Jan to a decision, unless Bader is dumb enough to stand and trade for too long. Phil's chin is good enough to eat any of Jan's shots, and he'd eventually go to the ground if he starts losing on the feet. Prime Davis beats Jan 10/10 unless he tries to kickbox the entire fight, and Bader wins at least 7 or 8 out of 10.

People just underrate Davis / Bader badly.

Combine that they are usually not very exciting and that UFC decided to not invest on promoting them and you have that many sherbros can't rate them for what they are.

 

[10000yearsold]

Cool.
I wonder if you believe so because you feel Davis/Bader have slowed down considerably or you just feel like Hill's grappling prowess is solid enough to beat any version of them.

Regardless, I doubt oddsmakers would support your claim. I highly doubt even you think they would.
Rankings - from any source you want to look at - dont even remotely support such claim, that's for sure.

Usually, when you make outlandish claims like that you are supposed to provide some kind of base or argument for it. Otherwise you just come across like an textbook UFC shill and 200% sure you would not make such claim if Hill fought under a different banner.

While I agree with you, I also think there's some merit to what this other poster is saying. These guys who ex-patriated from the UFC over to Bellator, despite their revivals in personal success, have to some degree accepted a ceiling on their overall career potential that is beneath that of any emergent talent under the UFC banner. Of course I think Bader and Davis or Corey would beat or be favored to beat Hill or some other win-some-lose-some work-in-progress light heavyweight on the UFC roster, but those fighters with UFC hopes have a different variety of fire in their bellies. While Bader and Davis and Corey all have understood relevance as top light heavyweights and should be ranked accordingly, there is an understanding about them and within them that they can't actually ever be #1 unless the UFC were to somehow lose all its talent and credibility.

 

[Poirierfan]

*recipe*. Can't even edit my message because of these stupid double yellows

Well stop opting for double yellows, it's not flattering.anyway.

 

[pankrat]

While I agree with you, I also think there's some merit to what this other poster is saying. These guys who ex-patriated from the UFC over to Bellator, despite their revivals in personal success, have to some degree accepted a ceiling on their overall career potential that is beneath that of any emergent talent under the UFC banner. Of course I think Bader and Davis or Corey would beat or be favored to beat Hill or some other win-some-lose-some work-in-progress light heavyweight on the UFC roster, but those fighters with UFC hopes have a different variety of fire in their bellies. While Bader and Davis and Corey all have understood relevance as top light heavyweights and should be ranked accordingly, there is an understanding about them and within them that they can't actually ever be #1 unless the UFC were to somehow lose all its talent and credibility.

I get what you mean, generally speaking, if we were comparing them with guys who did establish themselves at the top of the UFC (and even then its debatable in many cases), but to give full credit to any untested up and comer just because he excelled in certain favourable match ups is stupid. I dont care what promotion they fight in.

Who has Hill ever fought that prsented a legit grappling threat to even assume that he has the skill level to handle wrestlers like Davis or Bader.

Like when? In what fight did we even got a glimpse of it? Im asking for something other than pure, blind bias towards a brand

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

well, if jones needed to cheat constantly to win fights, then he's the one who lacks confidence in himself.

and no, i'm not doing the same thing at all
i only used hardy as an example of rumble not being this god given, nuclear hand-hammer who will knock everybody out whenever he wants.

You keep using the framing that Jones “needed” to poke people in the eyes or he couldn’t win. Even if we conceded that the pokes were intentional (and obviously not all pokes are intentional) that doesn’t mean that they were a necessary tool for winning. That’s like saying Usman didn’t think he could beat Jorge without using footstomps.

In general I feel you’re going way off topic here. This all came up because you were making the case for Glover being a huge feather in the cap for Jiri

 

[ElZid]

For the first couple minutes, I agree. But rewatch the first Cormier fight and see how Rumble looks in the last minute of the first round. Much, much slower and less dangerous.

If Jiri fought Rumble smart (and the elephant in the room is that he doesn’t fight smart), fighting behind his jab and looking for opportunities to clinch early, knee the body and let his size wear on Rumble, he could potentially give Rumble a really hard time. If he comes out goofy he’s getting clipped and there’s a decent chance he gets stopped.

Against prime DC who smothered him for like 4 minutes.
He was still fresh in the 3rd against Phil Davis who could not take him down and came in guns blazing against Manuwa in the 2nd.
To me he is a nightmare matchup against Jiri. A striker with average striking defense against the scariest one punch KO artist in the history of the division who happens to also be faster, more accurate and the better wrestler (in needed).

 

[Goober stoober]

Volkan is Rumble's successor. He probably has better fight IQ and maybe a shaving less in knock-out power within the first 3 mins. If Rumble could have held any belts he would have. JJ would have destroyed him.

jiri doesnt beat jones or dc. there i said it. he might not even beat gus and he definitely gets sent to the netherworld by AJ.

im not sure jiri beats guys from the earlier days either. he was supposed to wreck glover but he needed the longest to do it and was losing the fight before the finish. maybe it was an off night but let's see if he can make 1 defense.

 

[10000yearsold]

I get what you mean, generally speaking, if we were comparing them with guys who did establish themselves at the top of the UFC (and even then its debatable in many cases), but to give full credit to any untested up and comer just because he excelled in certain favourable match ups is stupid. I dont care what promotion they fight in.

Who has Hill ever fought that prsented a legit grappling threat to even assume that he has the skill level to handle wrestlers like Davis or Bader.

Like when? In what fight did we even got a glimpse of it? Im asking for something other than pure, blind bias towards a brand

I don't think Hill would be favored to beat those guys... but he could. I expect he'll continue to improve. I don't expect much more growth from Davis or Bader, altho Corey has recently shown some. Not sure how much more room for growth there can really be though for Corey.