Pivotal Moments: Dillashaw vs Barao pt 2 ( technique breakdown)

[MarxP]

Yeah, that seems to be the case. It's a very TMA way of approaching it, and I don't doubt that it's probably Bas Rutten's influence in him.

It's very likely that the concept of being effective from both stances was introduced to Ludwig by Bas Rutten as this is a common practice in kyokushin karate. At my dojo, our sensei stresses using mostly powerful rear hand/leg strikes from both orthodox and southpaw and having either our left or right foot forward (depending on the direction) when moving laterally.

I wonder why this isn't a more common practice in boxing or muay thai. You're able to generate maximum power on nearly every strike you throw (aside from lead hand straights, hooks, and uppercuts) and its very difficult to be caught in a bad position when you can fight from both stances effectively. Any thoughts?

 

[Sinister]

Well, you just said...you're able to get max power on every punch, except any punch that isn't a rear-hand straight punch. And in both boxing and Muay Thai, if you're in there with savvy opponents, the second you switch you're likely to get jumped on because as the feet are moving, that IS a bad position.

 

[flanellograf]

Well, you just said...you're able to get max power on every punch, that isn't a rear-hand straight punch. And in both boxing and Muay Thai, if you're in there with savvy opponents, the second you switch you're likely to get jumped on because as the feet are moving, that IS a bad position.

But the way TJ was doing it, it was mostly after attacking. If he ended up in an opposite stance, he just continued from there. Where is the downside to that?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Not really, he was bringing his feet together a lot, he'd switch mid slip, there were a lot of times he didn't have his feet under him.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

TJ's stance switching is almost the epitome of efficiency of movement. Worked perfect against a plodding guy like Barao, TJ's output was just so damn high.

Barao could barely land low kick... and just when Barao thought the exchange was over, TJ comes back in with a different stance.

 

[Jukai]

Haven't had time to read any of this

Just wanted to comment, A+ on the title

 

[Discipulus]

Not really, he was bringing his feet together a lot, he'd switch mid slip, there were a lot of times he didn't have his feet under him.

I think he did a pretty good job of keeping his feet under him whenever he was in range. He lunged some, and definitely drifted between stances mid-attack, but he was confident enough to do that all thanks to his excellent vision and awareness of what was going on. Nothing that hit him caught him completely off-guard.

I was reminded of Herol Graham, another fighter who switched his feet whenever he needed to, usually to take angles on his opponent. It did leave him vulnerable sometimes, but it also made him very difficult to fight. It's a trade-off.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

I think he did a pretty good job of keeping his feet under him whenever he was in range. He lunged some, and definitely drifted between stances mid-attack, but he was confident enough to do that all thanks to his excellent vision and awareness of what was going on. Nothing that hit him caught him completely off-guard.

I was reminded of Herol Graham, another fighter who switched his feet whenever he needed to, usually to take angles on his opponent. It did leave him vulnerable sometimes, but it also made him very difficult to fight. It's a trade-off.

I agree. I'm not saying he did a bad job at all, just that there were times that he was reaching as he lunged in, and particularly when he slipped that he was leaning with his head past his feet.
I've only watched it once, but I think it might have been the second where he got tagged pretty good. He switch his feet to avoid a punch, was leaning in the direction he was moving and got caught clean.
There were times he slipped and moved to avoid punches, when he only needed on or the other.
Like I said though, I don't want to sound too negative because he did an excellent job.

 

[flanellograf]

Not really, he was bringing his feet together a lot, he'd switch mid slip, there were a lot of times he didn't have his feet under him.

While he was out of reach, mostly (even though he has a tendency still to "lunge in" at times). And as Bang has stated himself, that's all in the system, to draw out attacks from the opponent and confuse them.

Obviously it wasn't a perfect performance, nor is he a finished product, so an occasional error might have slipped in. My point, however, was about when you are doing it properly. What are the downsides then?

 

[Discipulus]

While he was out of reach, mostly (even though he has a tendency still to "lunge in" at times). And as Bang has stated himself, that's all in the system, to draw out attacks from the opponent and confuse them.

Obviously it wasn't a perfect performance, nor is he a finished product, so an occasional error might have slipped in. My point, however, was about when you are doing it properly. What are the downsides then?

The downside is that you have twice as many positions to keep track of, greatly increasing the number of responses you need to have for various threats. And you cannot possibly switch stance in range without momentarily putting yourself at risk. To change stance, you have to give up position, so fighters who do switch stance have to time their switches very carefully.

 

[Sinister]

But the way TJ was doing it, it was mostly after attacking. If he ended up in an opposite stance, he just continued from there. Where is the downside to that?

The way I saw it, the efficiency of TJ also had a lot to do with Barao himself being caught unaware and not knowing how to deal with angled attacks in general. That worked out great, and I'd not question the strategy for this particular fight as it unfolded. But we're talking about the inevitable attempts to emulate this. As Nak pointed out, there were moments of absolutely compromised defensive liability and positioning. If a fighter isn't so easily dumbfounded and simply swings at the opposition during the transition, the consequences carry greater weight.

That is the downside. Did that happen against Barao? No, but that doesnt mean the downside doesnt exist.

Also, I'm not a fan of planning for/depending on opponenet ignorance. I've seen that go wrong too many times, even with my own fighters. But Bang hasn't presented himself as the kind of guy without a backup plan, which is good.

 

[flanellograf]

The way I saw it, the efficiency of TJ also had a lot to do with Barao himself being caught unaware and not knowing how to deal with angled attacks in general. That worked out great, and I'd not question the strategy for this particular fight as it unfolded. But we're talking about the inevitable attempts to emulate this. As Nak pointed out, there were moments of absolutely compromised defensive liability and positioning. If a fighter isn't so easily dumbfounded and simply swings at the opposition during the transition, the consequences carry greater weight.

That is the downside. Did that happen against Barao? No, but that doesnt mean the downside doesnt exist.

Also, I'm not a fan of planning for/depending on opponenet ignorance. I've seen that go wrong too many times, even with my own fighters. But Bang hasn't presented himself as the kind of guy without a backup plan, which is good.

It still sounds like you are talking about the instances where he did it badly. I was wondering about instances where you do it correctly. For instance, if you are attacking while your opponent is retreating and thus walking/running forward after him while attacking, and you end up in an opposite stance, or something.

EDIT: Connor already covered it, thanks anyway, feel free to ignore this post (if you don't want to add something he might have omitted).

 

[flanellograf]

The downside is that you have twice as many positions to keep track of, greatly increasing the number of responses you need to have for various threats. And you cannot possibly switch stance in range without momentarily putting yourself at risk. To change stance, you have to give up position, so fighters who do switch stance have to time their switches very carefully.

Ok, this was what I was looking for. Thanks.
So basically, you have to be a special type of athlete/fighter to gel with this approach. Which kind of makes sense, even though all the Alpha Male guys have improved, TJ seems to be the one that most naturally has taken to Bangs system.
And, it is pretty telling that Bang says TJ beats up everyone in the gym nowadays. I mean, he might be his favorite pupil and all, but still.

 

[a guy]

I definitely think it's important to realize that Barao really doesn't have good defensive footwork. He doesn't adjust his feet when his opponents take angles. There's a distinct lack of pivoting in his game. And he really only moves to his right comfortably. Any time he has to go left he square up and it's very awkward. The first round against wineland showed that his output drops if you pressure his centerline, even more so if you use feints so he doesn't know when to swing to intimidate you.

Dillashaw did a great job capitalizing on both his struggle to deal with angles and his struggle to keep opponents off him when they feint well.

 

[flanellograf]

I definitely think it's important to realize that Barao really doesn't have good defensive footwork. He doesn't adjust his feet when his opponents take angles. There's a distinct lack of pivoting in his game. And he really only moves to his right comfortably. Any time he has to go left he square up and it's very awkward. The first round against wineland showed that his output drops if you pressure his centerline, even more so if you use feints so he doesn't know when to swing to intimidate you.

Dillashaw did a great job capitalizing on both his struggle to deal with angles and his struggle to keep opponents off him when they feint well.

How would you compare Easton to Barao when it comes to defensive footwork?
I'm thinking the fight was so lopsided because of Baraos holes and style, which suited TJ like a glove, but I'm interested in theorising in how he would do against, say, Aldo or someone with good pivots, footwork and range control. Or perhaps a fighter with a similar style to him, aka Cruz.
It's also interesting to note, that while he might have been feinting the takedown a couple of times, he really didn't threaten with it much nor did he level change much.
In the Easton fight he seemed to do a lot more of that, if I remember correctly.

 

[Sinister]

It still sounds like you are talking about the instances where he did it badly. I was wondering about instances where you do it correctly. For instance, if you are attacking while your opponent is retreating and thus walking/running forward after him while attacking, and you end up in an opposite stance, or something.

EDIT: Connor already covered it, thanks anyway, feel free to ignore this post (if you don't want to add something he might have omitted).

No, switching the feet is switching the feet. It doesn't matter if it's "poorly" or "correctly." As they switch, the feet have to pass side-by-side, giving a moment where there cannot be balance. If you're attacking when you switch, then you ARE going off-balance to execute an attack that has a switch in it. If an opponent is more braced, and can hit you in that instance, you are going to suffer a greater consequence than if you land a punch on him, more times than not.

 

[Ignoramus]

So switch-hitting might give some advantages due to unpredictability of offense, but sacrifices defense in poor positioning.

What if you only switch from safe distances and not in the middle of your offense?

 

[Discipulus]

Switch-hitting doesn't just facilitate unpredictability, but immediacy of offense as well. In that GIF I posted earlier, for example, there's no way that Dillashaw could have taken Barao's back so quickly and immediately had his jab on him if he'd stuck to one stance. There is a great advantage to having "flexible" footwork, in that you can always have weapons at the ready to attack your opponent, no matter where he moves or how far away he is (within reason).

But once again, defense suffers big time. Dillashaw looked incredible against Barao, and he looked great against Easton, but those are two really unpolished counter strikers. Both of those guys kind of need to be dominating the pace of a fight to win it. I have no doubt that Ludwig has built some solid deense into Dillashaw's approach, and I also don't doubt that he'd be quick to tell TJ to cut out the switching if it started to get him in trouble, but the defensive liability of switch-hitting can't be overlooked.

It's basically a defense/offense trade-off. It's probably not for everyone, either. I don't think I could fight southpaw for any extended period even if I wanted to. It feels very, very unnatural to me.

 

[Sinister]

So switch-hitting might give some advantages due to unpredictability of offense, but sacrifices defense in poor positioning.

What if you only switch from safe distances and not in the middle of your offense?

Right on the first point.

As for the question, it depends. Even among the best switch-hitters I've ever seen, there's a second of mental delay. It reminds me of back in the days of reversing cassette tapes. There's a pause, then the music starts. Same with switch-hitters. The closest I've seen it to seamless IS during offensive maneuvers mostly. Usually, when my guys deal with switch-hitters, I encourage them to initiate quickly just after the switch, with the worst combinations for the opposite-stanced fighter to deal with. It pretty much works like a charm.

Now keep in-mind, I'm a trainer...AND I'm a southpaw. So I have to think backwards quite a bit to train my orthodox fighters, who are the majority of guys I train. So I've had to get pretty decent at standing orthodox, and once upon a time I too was fascinated with switching. I've just hardly ever seen the scenarios where I felt that the glaring vulnerabilities were very well accounted for.

 

[flanellograf]

No, switching the feet is switching the feet. It doesn't matter if it's "poorly" or "correctly." As they switch, the feet have to pass side-by-side, giving a moment where there cannot be balance. If you're attacking when you switch, then you ARE going off-balance to execute an attack that has a switch in it. If an opponent is more braced, and can hit you in that instance, you are going to suffer a greater consequence than if you land a punch on him, more times than not.

Right, ok I see what you mean. Thanks.