Patterson: Ingemar Johansson hit harder than Sonny Liston

[spacetime]

just too small, we've seen it in boxing many times. a guy with a good size advantage can really do a number on a smaller guy just because even glancing blows can hurt them and then the follow up with more glancing blows does the same, so , not as much skill needed to win. Patterson was probably more skilled than just about anyone he fought, no chin and too small though and kind of a headcase.

Patterson is the weakest of the great champs, but he was still great. Something like that.

 

[mozfonky]

Patterson is the weakest of the great champs, but he was still great. Something like that.

totally left off the all time lists, but the youngest man to win the title until tyson, the first man to regain the title, he certainly should have a better place than he does.

 

[DeJulez]

just too small, we've seen it in boxing many times. a guy with a good size advantage can really do a number on a smaller guy just because even glancing blows can hurt them and then the follow up with more glancing blows does the same, so , not as much skill needed to win. Patterson was probably more skilled than just about anyone he fought, no chin and too small though and kind of a headcase.

Never weighed over 200lbs.
First ever 2x Heavyweight Champion
Youngest HW Champ ever until Tyson.
But he did get knocked down alot.
But based on pure skills, there isn't too many people you can put higher than him

 

[mozfonky]

another story showing what an ass kisser Floyd was, after the first Ali fight, when everyone was begging him to "return the title to America" Frank Sinatra was all for him, then he lost, he went to visit Frank who entered the room and sat down many yards away and started reading a paper or something, floyd got the message and got up and left.

 

[treelo]

So you think he is acting when he is walking to his corner after the knockdown, in the middle of the fight, after which he gets floored in a rather savage way, including to the back of the head.

Ingo said the finishing job wasn't pretty and he missed a lot when he got excited, but he wanted Patterson out of there and get his money.

No, i dont think he acted, i think he got hit and wanted to quit.

Not sure where you thought i was saying he was acting from...

 

[mozfonky]

Never weighed over 200lbs.
2x Heavyweight Champion
Youngest HW Champ ever until Tyson.
But he did get knocked down alot.
But based on pure skills, there isn't too many people you can put higher than him

the odd thing is, and one that people forget, he went on to fight for many, many more years after the majority of knockdowns, and quite successfully, he beat some really good fighters, didn't get knocked down as much and was always just a little bit away from a big title fight. some have said that him adjusting his boxing posture away from the "peek a boo" and into a more traditional style made him harder to hit, he's a strange case all the way around. he gave ali reasonably tough fight the second time and even staggered him.

 

[mozfonky]

No, i dont think he acted, i think he got hit and wanted to quit.

Not sure where you thought i was saying he was acting from...

fighters don't react rationally when their hit, Boom Boom Mancini went to a corner after Arguello slammed him, Aaron Pryor crossed himself, started to get up, stayed down and seemingly accidentally got counted out against bobby joe young. Not every fighter has the ali ability to stay logical when hurt, it's your brain after all, if you've ever been knocked down you'd know what I'm talking about, you question everything "was I knocked out?" but most of all you get mad at yourself for not being able to take it.

 

[spacetime]

he gave ali reasonably tough fight the second time and even staggered him.

Doesn't surprise me, he was a heavy puncher too. In Tysons mind the fastest as well.

 

[mozfonky]

Doesn't surprise me, he was a heavy puncher too. In Tysons mind the fastest as well.

definitely the fastest, definitely and tyson would be a close second. That left hook he nearly killed ingo with may have had something to do with his killer instinct and punching power after that too, like I said, a really good fighter, traded being a big boy for being an all time great. Think of what he could have done as a light heavyweight, would foster have been able to kayo him? Who knows.

 

[DeJulez]

the odd thing is, and one that people forget, he went on to fight for many, many more years after the majority of knockdowns, and quite successfully, he beat some really good fighters, didn't get knocked down as much and was always just a little bit away from a big title fight. some have said that him adjusting his boxing posture away from the "peek a boo" and into a more traditional style made him harder to hit, he's a strange case all the way around. he gave ali reasonably tough fight the second time and even staggered him.

And the second Ali fight was in 1972. Patterson debuted in 1952. 20 years in the fight games a long time and the only people to ever beat Floyd were some notable names.
Joey Maxim, Ali (twice), Johansson (Floyd beat him twice), Liston (twice), Jerry Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis.

Patterson beat Johansson, Archie Moore, Oscar Bonavena, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Eddie Machen, Tommy Jackson (who had one year earlier beat Ezzard Charles twice)

 

[mozfonky]

And the second Ali fight was in 1972. Patterson debuted in 1952. 20 years in the fight games a long time and the only people to ever beat Floyd were some notable names.
Joey Maxim, Ali (twice), Johansson (Floyd beat him twice), Liston (twice), Jerry Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis.

Patterson beat Johansson, Archie Moore, Oscar Bonavena, Henry Cooper, George Chuvalo, Eddie Machen, Tommy Jackson (who had one year earlier beat Ezzard Charles twice)

certainly, and not bad for a guy who never gets mentioned in any dream matchups.

 

[eternaldarkness]

- "How hard was his punch compared to Liston’s, for example?”

- “Harder but different,” Floyd explained. It was then that he gave his insight into Johansson’s deceiving power. “No one, and I mean no one, hit me harder than Ingemar with that right hand. His right hand would knock you unconscious and was very difficult to recover from, it was so hard. It was so hard that on his best night he could knock out anyone with it if he trained right all the time.”

Ingo also scored a first round victory over Eddie Machen, one of the craftiest and most sophisticated of heavyweight boxers, who nullified all the power of Sonny Liston over twelve rounds.

Reflecting on Johansson’s climb up the ladder, Ron Lipton says

“I knew Eddie Machen went the distance with Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston and was one of the best heavyweights of his time. When Ingemar took him out in one round a year after stopping Henry Cooper, it was an all-time showstopper for me. Ingemar knocked down Machen three times in one round.”

Is Johansson's punching power underrated in HW boxing history?

well regarded at the time but often overlooked in hindsight. definitely a good one as far as underrated punchers.

 

[eternaldarkness]

And yet he was very conservative. He could go rounds without firing it. Very peculiar fighter. One would think he would spam it considering that they couldn't take it.

his right hand was so effective because he didn't spam it. you only have so much gas with power shots. also old school fighters were highly skilled and didn't want to open themselves up to be countered.
firing the right leaves you in what old timers called the "hourglass" stance and highly vulnerable to the counter, that is one of the reasons a lot of coaches will say never finish on a right hand.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Boxers often praise opponents that gave them a hard time but that they ultimately beat. It's a subtle way of praising themselves.

Sharkey said Dempsey would beat Louis.

I don't see it happening, but wonder if he said that because he did better against Dempsey than he did against Louis.

 

[Fluffernutter]

definitely the fastest, definitely and tyson would be a close second. That left hook he nearly killed ingo with may have had something to do with his killer instinct and punching power after that too, like I said, a really good fighter, traded being a big boy for being an all time great. Think of what he could have done as a light heavyweight, would foster have been able to kayo him? Who knows.

Imagine if cruiserweight was a thing back then.

 

[mozfonky]

Imagine if cruiserweight was a thing back then.

he might have still been too small for that, they say, eyewitnesses who saw him firsthand often said he should have been no more than a lhw and liebling I think it was said that he even though he could make the middleweight limit. His rep would have fared better if he had done that. one thing that boggles my mind is that you had lightheavies who jumped to heavy many times, bob foster, archie moore, joe lewis, champions and they'd get kayoed and not really be competitive in the process, then, since Michael Spinks broke the jinx, several men jumped right up and competed with even bigger men than they were. Michael Moorer is the main one but haven't there been a couple others? chris byrd was a middleweight for goodness sake and unrecognizable with all that flab added or taken away. I always thought size was overrated anyway but it's strange how lhw's were less competitive when the difference in weight was from 10-40 pounds rather than 50 to 80.

 

[deucesarewild]

Ingomar probably had better one shot power with that right hand. I can believe that.

Liston had power with both hands and laid them on his opponents with a pressuring style behind a cagey, brutal jab. That jab would push guys out of position and let him clobber them.

Johanson really had an okay left, and was not a consistently dedicated fighter.

Liston is better overall and has variety when applying his power, but that doesn't mean Ingomar didn't hit harder with his right. Some people just have more dump on their punch.

 

[spacetime]

Ingomar probably had better one shot power with that right hand. I can believe that.
.

Even that would probably surprise most people who watch Liston's physique compared to Johansson. On closer scrutiny however, Ingo does have more one punch knockdowns

 

[spacetime]

 

[spacetime]

Whatever happened to that guy?