Palm Strikes in Street Fight?

[Paolo Delutis]

Yeah, I agree with you about the damage on the knuckles. The public prosecutor and the judge also would look at details like this. By the way- it is very hard to know is a certain situation a fight to life and death or just it seems like this. Many times the bullies retreat within seconds after taking a little damage and if the "victim" doesn't stop- we have a crime. You know- sometimes the eyes of the fear are big.




So you agree that the punches more damaging? However if the guy is not on drugs, drunk or crazy- the punches can be more effective IMO, because you are going to inflict more damage to the face. A bare knuckle punch to the face, the temples or even the forehead is quite painful for me, while the palm strikes are mainly only shaking my brain.

Umm yes and no.. Only cuz peoples understanding or standards are different..

For example someone may fight 2 people at a time with no weapons and not consider it life or death while others would consider this life or death..

I think it depends on the person and intent or feeling the situation causes

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Excellent points.
If you don't mind my asking, what part of Ontario are you from?
I spent a little time back in the '80s training in Niagara Falls, Ontario with Harold Howard in Jiu-Jitsu back when I was crosstraining in Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu for a while. I got to see Howard's brand of Jiu-Jitsu in action one night when he took us to a bar with nude dancers that a couple of his students worked at as security. And, as luck would have it some biker got out of hand & wound up getting tossed out. It was interesting to witness & it proved to be very effective.
I stayed with Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu through purple belt but then switched over to Hawaiian Kempo/Kajukenbo as it fit much better with my style being that I was a boxer & already had a black belt in kickboxing as well.

Hey, thats cool

Ive heard of him but never met him or anything i was born in 1990. Im from an area about 1 or so hours away from niagara towards toronto called mississauga.The japanese jiujitsu gym i train at is called Bushido Jiujitsu Mississauga but we are linked by teaching lineage to another long standing gym in Ontario called Milton Jiujitsu ran by head sensei Bob Kranst who is an official on the CJA (Canadian Jiujitsu association) and is very highly ranked( i believe 8 degree or higher black belt) and highly respected in our community..his gym littered with photos of past fighters including Carlos Newton who spent some time there during his MMA days

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Hey, thats cool

Ive heard of him but never met him or anything i was born in 1990. Im from an area about 1 or so hours away from niagara towards toronto called mississauga.The japanese jiujitsu gym i train at is called Bushido Jiujitsu Mississauga but we are linked by teaching lineage to another long standing gym in Ontario called Milton Jiujitsu ran by head sensei Bob Kranst who is an official on the CJA (Canadian Jiujitsu association) and is very highly ranked( i believe 8 degree or higher black belt) and highly respected in our community..his gym littered with photos of past fighters including Carlos Newton who spent some time there during his MMA days

OK. I've been through Mississauga many, many times.
I used to fight in Cabbagetown in Toronto a lot when I was still an amateur.
I've actually got strong Canadian roots as my great-grandfather & his family settled in St. Catherines when they got off the boat from Sussex, England about a century ago. My family didn't become American until my grandfather moved to Buffalo.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

OK. I've been through Mississauga many, many times.
I used to fight in Cabbagetown in Toronto a lot when I was still an amateur.
I've actually got strong Canadian roots as my great-grandfather & his family settled in St. Catherines when they got off the boat from Sussex, England about a century ago. My family didn't become American until my grandfather moved to Buffalo.

Awesome , always great to see fellow Canadians on here lineage or otherwise

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Yeah, I agree with you about the damage on the knuckles. The public prosecutor and the judge also would look at details like this. By the way- it is very hard to know is a certain situation a fight to life and death or just it seems like this. Many times the bullies retreat within seconds after taking a little damage and if the "victim" doesn't stop- we have a crime. You know- sometimes the eyes of the fear are big.




So you agree that the punches more damaging? However if the guy is not on drugs, drunk or crazy- the punches can be more effective IMO, because you are going to inflict more damage to the face. A bare knuckle punch to the face, the temples or even the forehead is quite painful for me, while the palm strikes are mainly only shaking my brain.

Well, as boxing is my base it's instinctual for me to fight with a closed fist.

 

[Adnan Adil]

Umm yes and no.. Only cuz peoples understanding or standards are different..

For example someone may fight 2 people at a time with no weapons and not consider it life or death while others would consider this life or death..

I think it depends on the person and intent or feeling the situation causes

Yeah, you are right- different people, different thinking.

Well, as boxing is my base it's instinctual for me to fight with a closed fist.

I like how you explain your preference of the fists over palm strikes, because of the boxing. Most people think that this is the instinct, but I am not sure in this- the monkeys can't form fist for example and plus this- many people throw something between fist and open hand, so I am not sure that we are designed naturally to throw punches.

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

Hey, thats cool

Ive heard of him but never met him or anything i was born in 1990. Im from an area about 1 or so hours away from niagara towards toronto called mississauga.The japanese jiujitsu gym i train at is called Bushido Jiujitsu Mississauga but we are linked by teaching lineage to another long standing gym in Ontario called Milton Jiujitsu ran by head sensei Bob Kranst who is an official on the CJA (Canadian Jiujitsu association) and is very highly ranked( i believe 8 degree or higher black belt) and highly respected in our community..his gym littered with photos of past fighters including Carlos Newton who spent some time there during his MMA days

not related to palm strikes or anything (sorry Adnan) but i just think it's cool Carlos Newton trained at that gym. I feel he's a little under the radar/under appreciated in the history of MMA fighters, his bulldog choke of Pat Miletich always stands out when i hear his name!

 

[Paolo Delutis]

not related to palm strikes or anything (sorry Adnan) but i just think it's cool Carlos Newton trained at that gym. I feel he's a little under the radar/under appreciated in the history of MMA fighters, his bulldog choke of Pat Miletich always stands out when i hear his name!

Ontario's finest and Canadian MMA pioneer he set the table for GSPs dominance years later...

UFC Welterweight division has been an interesting story for canadians..

You have newton who beat. Pat miletich and miletichs protege in Matt Hughes who avenged the loss only to be eventually toppled by fellow Canadian GSP...its cool, kinda like an old world blood fued haha

He was also incredibly smart outside of the ring too Newton..something not many MMA can say still to this day

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

man, i never thought of it that way! they really did go back and forth like that between the two gyms/countries. that's pretty cool

 

[TriangleMonkey]

If you succssfully poke someone in the eyes I think you can pretty much do what you want for a little while afterwards.

I remember one of the Kenpo instructors (im talking waay back in the day) said “When you poke someone in the eye, its a lot like touching there brain”. One fellow classmate claimed he got himmed up (grabbed) by some dude at the gas station and got straight picked up off his feet, he gouged the eye, the dude set him down and left.

 

[JohnPJones]

good for gnp for sure or up close but id not go out of my way t use them tbh if u can beat people in a gym u can beat un trained people in the street

It’s not about ‘being able to beat them, it’s about safety.

Skull vs fist it’s very easy to break your hand. Not so much with an open handed strike.

Unless you’re planning to wrap your wrists and put gloves on before the street fight that is...

 

[JohnPJones]

Gouging someone's eyes is not very good ideal generally in aspect of law problems after the fight. And yes, it is a bad even to see some fingers which are coming in the direction of your eyes. This is going to make you to close your eyes and or flinch.




Yes, the jaw line is the main target in a fight. But all those people who claim that if your opponent ducks and you hit his forehead instead of his face, forget that if you use palm strike in the same scenario, you might break your wrist, because the point of impact would be too high on your hand.

i don’t know where you’re from but here in the US most state legally treat an eye gouge the same as a punch

Also how do you figure hitting a forehead with a palm will break your wrist?

 

[JohnPJones]

As for why don’t you see palm strikes on street fights often? I’d say generally we’re indoctrinated most of our lives that fighting is done closed fisted.

Boxing, mma, even in movies and on tv open handed strikes are rare to see, the only exception martial arts specific movies like the Ip man movies, or Bruce Lee movies, so people instinctively mimic what they have seen.
Though without those stimuli throughout our lives I do think open handed strikes are more natural or truly instinctive.

There seems to be a few people conflating a palm strike with a slap or a bitch slap( using the meta carpal region), rather than a palm heel strike(using the carpal region)

Does a fist have more potential to damage the opponent? Yes I’d say so, but I think it also has more potential to damage the one using it.

Adnan you said a lot of fighters have used punches to great effect in street fights, but many have fucked up their hands and/or wrists using punches in fights as well. Just because they can be used without injuring yourself doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

 

[Adnan Adil]

i don’t know where you’re from but here in the US most state legally treat an eye gouge the same as a punch

Also how do you figure hitting a forehead with a palm will break your wrist?

If you try intentionally to gouge someone's eye the punishment would be worse, compared with that case in which this happens accidentally. 3 factors are important according to the civil law system (used in Europe)- the tool, the target and the intensity of the attempt.
Breaking wrist is possible IMO (never happened in sparring) if you connect with the upper part of your hand the wrist will take enormous pressure with your opponent's forehead. The fingers are in danger also, but they are in danger even when using fists, too. I have injured bad my left thumb in an open hand sparring, when we have collided with our hands throwing simultaneously left hooks. A partner of mine damaged his fist and especially his thumb when throwing body shot- I lifted on of my legs and blocked the punch with my shin, a cracking noise came from his fist, which slid and it next stop was the thumb, which cracked even worse.

As for why don’t you see palm strikes on street fights often? I’d say generally we’re indoctrinated most of our lives that fighting is done closed fisted.

Boxing, mma, even in movies and on tv open handed strikes are rare to see, the only exception martial arts specific movies like the Ip man movies, or Bruce Lee movies, so people instinctively mimic what they have seen.
Though without those stimuli throughout our lives I do think open handed strikes are more natural or truly instinctive.

There seems to be a few people conflating a palm strike with a slap or a bitch slap( using the meta carpal region), rather than a palm heel strike(using the carpal region)

Does a fist have more potential to damage the opponent? Yes I’d say so, but I think it also has more potential to damage the one using it.

Adnan you said a lot of fighters have used punches to great effect in street fights, but many have fucked up their hands and/or wrists using punches in fights as well. Just because they can be used without injuring yourself doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

Very nice explanation, man. Honestly in the beginning I wasn't thinking that this argument is serious- the people don't see much use of palm strikes on the TV and that is why they don't use them in a fight, but with the time I've realized that the things might be just like this. All what we hear since we are kids is "Slapping is for girls, real men use fists.". The tough guys on the movies always use fists. The combat athletes use fists, too. And in that way we might be programmed to use punches instead of palm strikes.
And about the injuries- I have seen injuries (and sustained minor ones) from both ways of striking as I mentioned above. I have tried to punch with decent amount of force elbows of my sparring partners (still not full force) and this was in a relatively cold day and I wasn't impressed from the feeling honestly. But this doesn't mean that if I go full force the result would be the same.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

I don't think it's so much indoctrination as basic biology.
Clenching your fists is a pretty universal stress response and most of the time you're fighting "in the street", you're stressed as fuck.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I wonder how many of you, guys, have used or at least seen someone to use palm strikes in a street fight. Everybody can read on a million places on the internet how effective they are and how safe are those kind of strikes compared with the good old punches. In the recent months I have changed my shadowboxing and heavy bag and I have switched mainly to palm strikes, but I keep thinking is this needed at all. So what are your thoughts on this and mainly- do you have any experience with palm strikes?

 

[Adnan Adil]

Bas Rutten is a beast. He can knock out people probably using his ears, too.

 

[YourOnlineHero]

I wonder how many of you, guys, have used or at least seen someone to use palm strikes in a street fight. Everybody can read on a million places on the internet how effective they are and how safe are those kind of strikes compared with the good old punches. In the recent months I have changed my shadowboxing and heavy bag and I have switched mainly to palm strikes, but I keep thinking is this needed at all. So what are your thoughts on this and mainly- do you have any experience with palm strikes?

If you do ever end up in a serious fight where you feel your life is in danger, it won't matter if you break your hand.

You'd rather be forced to take time of work with a broken hand than be dead because you hesitated trying to use palm strikes.

I don't care how much you drill them, it will slow you down.

Yeah bas and the like used palm strikes back in the day. But he wasn't in life threatening danger and was prioritising injury prevention. He could afford to risk that extra split second of hesitation.

 

[Adnan Adil]

If you do ever end up in a serious fight where you feel your life is in danger, it won't matter if you break your hand.

You'd rather be forced to take time of work with a broken hand than be dead because you hesitated trying to use palm strikes.

I don't care how much you drill them, it will slow you down.

Yeah bas and the like used palm strikes back in the day. But he wasn't in life threatening danger and was prioritising injury prevention. He could afford to risk that extra split second of hesitation.

John Hackleman is that you? I am serious- this guy has made few videos on youtube in which he explains the same as you. According to him "If you are not fucken Bas Rutfen" it is better to stick to the punches. Why do you think that punching is more natural than palm strikes? Look the comments above- there are plenty arguments against that. And about the injuries- yes, no doubt that everyone would prefer the life with cast on the hand for four weeks, than the death without cast on the hands.

 

[YourOnlineHero]

John Hackleman is that you? I am serious- this guy has made few videos on youtube in which he explains the same as you. According to him "If you are not fucken Bas Rutfen" it is better to stick to the punches. Why do you think that punching is more natural than palm strikes? Look the comments above- there are plenty arguments against that. And about the injuries- yes, no doubt that everyone would prefer the life with cast on the hand for four weeks, than the death without cast on the hands.

Haha he's a smart guy. I guess here are my reasons for thinking that.

1) A fist is more likely to go through someone's guard if they cover their face.
An open hand has a bigger surface area where a large percentage of it flexes.

2) I guess I could be mistaken if you train palm strikes as much as Bas, but there are less ways you can strike someone with your palm, from less angles. So would you settle for no punches when the opportunity is open or would you switch between palm and fist? Both of those options create chance for hesitation.

3) Doing anything in your line of vision with your hands activates a certain thing in your brain that improves manual dexterity/precision/tactile feedback. I forget the name for it. Closing your eyes or your fists eliminates this.

You don't notice it when you are doing something habitual after lots of practice. But it comes back in high pressure situations for even the simplest of open hand tasks.

The power aspect of punch Vs open palm can be argued. So can the above points.. but if there is a chance any of the above 3 things come in to play, it's not worth the risk.

I don't advocate violence outside of the gym at all and physical conflict should be avoided if at all possible but I've been in a few bad situations. Grew up in a place with high knife crime and poverty, fortunately few guns. And my only advice is tuck your chin deep, get close and throw as many straight rights as you can in rapid succession until you can get away safely.

If you're at a distance where you can kick or circle away, you are in an ego fight. So you have the ability to defuse the situation or escape.