Palhares vs Shields *spoilers*

[randomg1t]

did palhares say that about not feeling the tap after this fight?

yup.

it is really difficult to feel someone frantically tapping on your ass and someone else tapping on your shoulders and torso when you're so focused on the submission and just waiting for, you know, someone to tap.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

he lets go literally the instant the ref touches him. magny starts tapping at 2:11, at 2:10 maia already let go. there is virtually no time between dean touching maia and maia letting go.

now i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you are watching the tape (and i am) as you're typing this and still claim that he didn't let go when the ref got in there, then there really is nothing left to debate with you because you are either as blind as a bat, or reaching so hard you might snap.

your the one lying or blind, I posted maias gif several times, you can even see on maias face that he keeps squeezing after the ref touched him, neil tapped severl times and maia did not let go.

nogueira tapped after his arm snapped. there is literally no debate on this.

mir knew it would break, of course. but if your opponent refuses to tap, you keep cranking it. it broke, nog tapped, ref jumped in, mir let go. you know why no one (including nogueira) said anything? because the broken arm was nogeuira's fault for not tapping. he had plenty of time to submit and refused to do so.

it happened in that process, but nogeira tapped before the arm snapped.

i think it would've been better for everyone if he let go after the 4th tap on his ass by jake, or perhaps the first time the ref touched him. maybe the second. the ref has to tap like 6 times on him.

you dont stop when the fighters taps, you stop when the ref tells you to, did toquinho kept the sub a little bit longer? yeah 1.3 secs longer, theres a vid outhere, is not the ideal, but it is not that bad, and many many people have done the same but no one gets as much shit as toquinho for doing it.

so whose arms has werdum broken? maia? jacare? are these guys not subbing people and providing for their families? the shit that's being said in his defense is astounding, are you seriously suggesting that he doesn't cling on to shit for way too long? this is like the 7th time it's happened in his fights.

whos arm or leg or knee has toquinho broken so far? please tell me whos the fighter that go sidelines because of toquinho...

 

[JoelThomas]

or he is in fact mentally incapable of comprehending when his opponents submit. if he's that "slow", as you put it, he shouldn't be allowed to compete anymore.

It's unfortunately this. If you watch his interviews and behavior outside the ring, he seems like a pretty gentle, non-malicious individual. He's just slow. Which is deeply depressing, because he's imo one of the most naturally skilled submission grapplers of all time. He just wrecked two of most unsubmittable grapplers in WW history. But he's always going to carry this stigma now, and we'll probably never get to see him go as far as he could.

 

[Badger67]

Didn't he say he grew up eating pig food for a while on his farmland? I'd imagine his brain didn't develop fully being uneducated and eating terrible quality food. But, who knows.

 

[JoelThomas]

you dont stop when the fighters taps, you stop when the ref tells you to, did toquinho kept the sub a little bit longer? yeah 1.3 secs longer, theres a vid outhere, is not the ideal, but it is not that bad, and many many people have done the same but no one gets as much shit as toquinho for doing it.

He looks like he lets up pressure as soon as he feels the ref, because you can see Shields' shoulder start to settle back; much quicker than 1.3 seconds.

In any case, I don't think people get as much shit for it because it seems like no one else in MMA is consistently winning via joint locks. It's not like Palhares takes a year and wins a couple decisions, so people have a chance to forget.

 

[TheGZA]

i feel like the big thing that holds shields back, or other elite grapplers like him in mma, it not simply deficiencies in stand-up, but the fact that when they 'do' get guys on the ground, they have a hard time putting them away...it seems like theres a lack of a 'mean streak' in many ground fighters, the instinct for seeking out ways to do damage.

I posted this video in the Maia-Magny thread, but I'll re-post here. Maia talks about trying his best to win without hurting his opponent. It seems he completely lacks the mean streak you're talking about.

[YT]DSC5tfzTzJ8[/YT]

 

[randomg1t]

your the one lying or blind, I posted maias gif several times, you can even see on maias face that he keeps squeezing after the ref touched him, neil tapped severl times and maia did not let go.

i said he lets go as soon as the ref touches him. you can post your gif 12 more times, it makes no difference, the gif cuts of when the ref moves in. i checked the actual video, when the fucking ref touches him, he lets go.

it happened in that process, but nogeira tapped before the arm snapped.

according to no one on this planet, except you.

if nog tapped and mir broke his arm afterwards, there would've been a shitstorm. you're acting like nogueira has no supporters, or that he's never complained about anything before. had there been any foul play from mir, we'd know about it.

you dont stop when the fighters taps, you stop when the ref tells you to, did toquinho kept the sub a little bit longer? yeah 1.3 secs longer, theres a vid outhere, is not the ideal, but it is not that bad, and many many people have done the same but no one gets as much shit as toquinho for doing it.

did he stop when the ref told him?

you act as if 1.3 seconds isn't much. this is the grappling forum, for fuck's sake. you people grapple. you know that when you lock up a sub, the only thing you're looking for and paying attention to is when the tap comes. and when it comes, it takes you a fraction of a second to let go. in fact, you probably let go before they manage to tap for the second time.

whos arm or leg or knee has toquinho broken so far? please tell me whos the fighter that go sidelines because of toquinho...

did he, or didn't he hold on even after the ref clearly made contact with him when he subbed:
- linhares
- pierce
- carl
- fitch
- shields

now i haven't seen the fights but i read he also held on to the sub when he fought dipp and luiz moura.

he doesn't have to actually break something in order to blatantly break the rules. people like you make it seem as if phantom taps happen in every fight and the only way you don't get cheated out of a submission win is to have the ref stomp your face. it's not an issue, there hasn't been a tap like that in a high profile fight in so long i can't even think of any.

the only one i can think of right now is sonnen on silva, and you know what happened there? the submission stood.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

he did not headbutt him, he insted proceeded to chin in the eye. He was gassed in the third and getting his ass kicked around standing up, thats what lead him to sloppy tds, although none of those sloppy tds cost hm the fight, because he was in side control when he got reversed with the kimura.

it looked to me like palhares set up the kimura straight from the takedown, locking it in while shields was still going for the single. then when they hit the ground shields tries to pass guard to get out of it (like he did to avoid a looser kimura in the first round) but the kimura was already too deep.

and when have you ever seen shields gassed after two rounds in that type of fight? those grinding grapple fests are his bread and butter. it's obviously impossible to say for sure how much impact those eye pokes had, but i'd say it was pretty significant considering that shields had to get in an argument with the ref while in a dominant position, immediately after which he changed tactics and starting gnp'ing from mount which allowed palhares to escape and almost heel hook him. then coming out for the third round he looked slower and more deliberate. plus, the eye gouges were all he talked about postfight, rather than the kimura being held too long.

 

[EGDM]

you act as if 1.3 seconds isn't much. this is the grappling forum, for fuck's sake. you people grapple. you know that when you lock up a sub, the only thing you're looking for and paying attention to is when the tap comes. and when it comes, it takes you a fraction of a second to let go. in fact, you probably let go before they manage to tap for the second time.

This. Human reaction time is roughly 0.15 seconds for touch stiumulus. (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Reaction+Time+Human) Waiting 1.3 seconds is almost TEN TIMES too long.

You can clearly see Mazzagatti hit Palhares four times (and arguably five) before the submission is released. Anyone who has ever trained knows that it's just not that hard to release a sub.

Palhares is either unwilling or unable to treat his opponents with the appropriate consideration. I don't think the distinction is meaningful.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

This. Human reaction time is roughly 0.15 seconds for touch stiumulus. (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Reaction+Time+Human) Waiting 1.3 seconds is almost TEN TIMES too long.

You can clearly see Mazzagatti hit Palhares four times (and arguably five) before the submission is released. Anyone who has ever trained knows that it's just not that hard to release a sub.

Palhares is either unwilling or unable to treat his opponents with the appropriate consideration. I don't think the distinction is meaningful.

might be that, not when you are full on adrenaline in the middle of a fight.

 

[EGDM]

might be that, not when you are full on adrenaline in the middle of a fight.

It's probably even lower then. Adrenaline is a *stimulant* whose purpose is primarily to make you better/faster/stronger in fights.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

i said he lets go as soon as the ref touches him. you can post your gif 12 more times, it makes no difference, the gif cuts of when the ref moves in. i checked the actual video, when the fucking ref touches him, he lets go.



according to no one on this planet, except you.

}

I give you the benefit of the doubt, but neil tapped like 5 times before that, and you said he let go before the ref touched him.

if nog tapped and mir broke his arm afterwards, there would've been a shitstorm. you're acting like nogueira has no supporters, or that he's never complained about anything before. had there been any foul play from mir, we'd know about it.

nog cleary taps (not violently though) problem was mir did not apply slow pressure, dude put everythng he had in there, well, what do you think it was going to happen if toquinho put everything he had in that kimura?

did he stop when the ref told him?

you act as if 1.3 seconds isn't much. this is the grappling forum, for fuck's sake. you people grapple. you know that when you lock up a sub, the only thing you're looking for and paying attention to is when the tap comes. and when it comes, it takes you a fraction of a second to let go. in fact, you probably let go before they manage to tap for the second time.

yeah in training, not in mma, big ass difference.

did he, or didn't he hold on even after the ref clearly made contact with him when he subbed:
- linhares
- pierce
- carl
- fitch
- shields

none got injured.

now i haven't seen the fights but i read he also held on to the sub when he fought dipp and luiz moura.

he doesn't have to actually break something in order to blatantly break the rules. people like you make it seem as if phantom taps happen in every fight and the only way you don't get cheated out of a submission win is to have the ref stomp your face. it's not an issue, there hasn't been a tap like that in a high profile fight in so long i can't even think of any.

the only one i can think of right now is sonnen on silva, and you know what happened there? the submission stood.[/QUOTE]

whats your point? fighters should let go when they feel the tap? well, they dont, period. As far as the rules say this, you should hold on the sub till the ref stops you.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It's probably even higher then. Adrenaline is a stimulant whose purpose is primarily to make you react faster in fights.

wtf? yeah like when you are in a fight and dont feel shit till the adrenaline wears down right?

 

[EGDM]

wtf? yeah like when you are in a fight and dont feel shit till the adrenaline wears down right?

Adrenaline dulls pain reception. Those are different nerves and different pathways from touch response.

It's seriously not this complicated. Literally hundreds of thousands of people all over the world compete in combat sports and don't have the same problems that Palhares does. It's not an issue of human physiology. It's an issue of Palhares.

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

might be that, not when you are full on adrenaline in the middle of a fight.

I somehow doubt that Palhares is the only fighter whose body releases adrenaline during a fight. Bizarrely, none of the other fighters seem to have a problem letting go despite the adrenaline.

Edit:

none got injured.

Pierce got injured, MCL sprain and torn ankle ligament, per wikipedia and Inside MMA.

 

[Spoonman7]

Palhares won fair and square but damn, such a dirty fighter. the eye pokes should have been addressed more and then he holds the sub too long, again. I hope disciplinary action comes down on him, he needs it. Shields looked good in the fight too

 

[randomg1t]

I give you the benefit of the doubt, but neil tapped like 5 times before that, and you said he let go before the ref touched him.

show me where i said that. seriously, point out the exact post in which i said he let go before the ref intervened.

nog cleary taps (not violently though) problem was mir did not apply slow pressure, dude put everythng he had in there, well, what do you think it was going to happen if toquinho put everything he had in that kimura?

how is that relevant? nog got broken for tapping late. a different scenario entirely.

yeah in training, not in mma, big ass difference.

it's pretty evident from your other posts that you seem to believe that adrenaline slows down your reflexes. now i'm not trying to be too condescending, but you seriously need to read up on that if you're going to use it as an argument.

here's the short version: it doesn't. it enhances them.

none got injured.

i'm not going to dig into it, but pierce got injured.

whats your point? fighters should let go when they feel the tap? well, they dont, period. As far as the rules say this, you should hold on the sub till the ref stops you.

my point is that there are plenty of fighters who let go immediately after the tap. and if they don't, they let go immediately after the ref touches them. i'll accept that, it's fine.

palhares lets go about a second after the ref jumps in his face, and often has to literally pry his fucking arms apart. maybe he should compete under a different set of rules where the ref actually punches him in the face to make sure he understands the fight is over?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

show me where i said that. seriously, point out the exact post in which i said he let go before the ref intervened.

he lets go literally the instant the ref touches him. magny starts tapping at 2:11, at 2:10 maia already let go. there is virtually no time between dean touching maia and maia letting go.

how is that relevant? nog got broken for tapping late. a different scenario entirely.

if toquinho is willing to hurt his opponents, there would be a trail of people not walking for months.

it's pretty evident from your other posts that you seem to believe that adrenaline slows down your reflexes. now i'm not trying to be too condescending, but you seriously need to read up on that if you're going to use it as an argument.

here's the short version: it doesn't. it enhances them.

really? well then tell me wtf is it that numbs your senses when you are in a fight? when you are full on adrenaline, you dont feel shit, you can have your skull open and wont care till it weards down, if it enhaces you sense, then then that means pain should be much worst, let me give you a hint, it doesnt.

 

[randomg1t]

i'll go out on a limb here and assume you think i was referring to the time into the round? i was talking about the timer on the video, you know, going backwards? magny taps with 2:11 left in the round, maia already lets go at 2:10, the instant when the ref touches him. i can see how that was confusing though.

if toquinho is willing to hurt his opponents, there would be a trail of people not walking for months.

so as long as he's just holding on and cranking dangerous shit without ruining careers, we're cool? it doesn't matter if it's against the rules, as long as there aren't serious injuries? and i bet pierce was limping. i just tore my MCL. it's a motherfucker.

really? well then tell me wtf is it that numbs your senses when you are in a fight? when you are full on adrenaline, you dont feel shit, you can have your skull open and wont care till it weards down, if it enhaces you sense, then then that means pain should be much worst, let me give you a hint, it doesnt.

are you kidding me? reduced pain reception doesn't mean you literally don't feel anything. if that was the case, we'd be as good as paralyzed on adrenaline.

adrenaline makes you stronger, quicker, more perceptive of the specific task at hand, and more impervious to pain. it doesn't turn you into a fucking golem. and the whole point is moot, since no one else has the same problem. it isn't a problem with how humans are wired, it's a problem within palhares.

 

[Steve08]

if toquinho is willing to hurt his opponents, there would be a trail of people not walking for months.

Yeah because Mike Pierce has been SUPER active recently..

Dude hasn't fought since October 2013 and you think that's a coincidence?!?!