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he did, we went chin on the eye.
Palhares vs Shields *spoilers*
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he did, we went chin on the eye.
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People blow up when Palhares does something wrong, because his is consistently doing something wrong. I seriously dont understand how some of you dont get that, or can defend this guy.
Exactly.
Don't act like theres a double standard against Palhares because others have cranked a kimura just as bad and not gotten the same treatment. Everyone is down on Palhares because this kind of thing happens more often than not.
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you are comparing your training vs a pro mma fight? really? how about that person instead of friendly rolling with you is trying his hardest to fuck you up?
in the Sylvias fight it was not his fault, in the nog fight, he did not let go inmediately, and not tapped and still he did not let go, but it was a very soft tap and he did the right thing. It was not malicius. In the lesnar fight, he did what the rules told him to do.
Look, toquinho has certain issues, but shit gets overblown with him, thats pretty much what everyone defending him is saying. It normally looks way worst than what it is becasue the fighter is tapping frenetically (out of fear of getting some shit broken, I know I would if I was in that place) and the ref stepping in late. Jake was starting to tap right after the sweep he must have tapped like 10 times or something, well, that is what made the whole thing looked horrible, just like in the pierce fight, and most people tend to form an opinion based on the fighters tap, not when the ref interviened, so it looks horrible.
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Bustamante kicked him out for injuring team mates.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/439252/Former-coach-Palhares-hurt-people-in-the-gym-a-lot/
If he really thought of his family, he wouldn't have been an idiot and he would've kept his contract at the UFC.
I find it very difficult to believe that lab rat can learn to avoid an electric current, but Toquinho can't figure out how to let go of a sub in time.....even though I know white belts that let go without a problem.
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i get where youre coming from. only time that i can think of a fighter saying he dialed back a sub was vitor/bones. and it may have fost him the match
but it all comes down to tap or not. with mirs mentiined bouts with tim and bg nog
when honda goes for arms, shes taking them home with her
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lol! the clubbing was sooo bad in adcc. some of them wer full on blows
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Yeah, but... yeah, but... Palhares's manager said it ain't so. That means it ain't so, don't it?
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This stuff breaks my heart. Palhares has a great approach to grappling that I think would make BJJ a lot more MMA-applicable, were more guys to take it. He just takes it too far. Like others have noted, you can be a determined finisher yet respect the ref coming in, and get just as great of results (Mir). I've never heard one of Mir's victims complain about him - Lesnar complained about MAZZAGATI (SAME REF!!!) letting the kneebar go so far; Nog just gave Mir props; Sylvia didn't even want the fight stopped and was shocked when he found out his arm was wrecked.
I really wonder if Palhares' stuff isn't intentional though - he goes so nuts in the cage and is always doing weird stuff like when he stopped that one fight early and jumped up on the cage or complained to the ref about Marquardt's legs being slippery without defending himself - maybe he just goes into an "instinct" thing while fighting and runs off adrenaline. That isn't a defense by any means - he's just as dangerous as if it was intentional - I just wonder if maybe the man lacks the capacity to "fight safely" for whatever reason. He strikes me as a guy that fights on emotion and doesn't really have control of himself. As opposed to a Hector Lombard or Babalu Sobral who just seems evil haha.
I really wonder if Palhares' stuff isn't intentional though - he goes so nuts in the cage and is always doing weird stuff like when he stopped that one fight early and jumped up on the cage or complained to the ref about Marquardt's legs being slippery without defending himself - maybe he just goes into an "instinct" thing while fighting and runs off adrenaline. That isn't a defense by any means - he's just as dangerous as if it was intentional - I just wonder if maybe the man lacks the capacity to "fight safely" for whatever reason. He strikes me as a guy that fights on emotion and doesn't really have control of himself. As opposed to a Hector Lombard or Babalu Sobral who just seems evil haha.
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Yes/no. My point is that we all know when to let go. It's not rocket science. In the context of an MMA fight, I support the belief that you hold it until the ref steps in. That doesn't mean keep cranking it. Rewatch Mir/Nog 2. Mir held it, but you don't see him continuing to torque the arm after the break. He holds the arm, but he doesn't torque. It's technically illegal to keep cranking after the ref steps in. It's also unsportsmanlike.
Palhares' issues make him incapable to participate in this SPORT. If an NFL player were known for late hits...over and over...warned...cut....and still does it...what do you say? If a pitcher keeps hitting players over and over and over...what do you say? You say, eh, you may be a great player, but you're not worth keeping around. You're bad for business. You're bad for the sport.
Jake tapped once the pressure was on. Palhares continued to CRANK. He didn't hold it. He cranked it and kept cranking it after the ref intervened.
I don't get how anyone who trains can defend this behavior. His own coach kicked him out because he injures people. They got him a shrink. He gets kicked out of an org...the biggest one in the world. He still does it. And he's on video cranking subs after the tap and after ref intervention over and over.
I think people defending him are just contrarians. Sometimes going against the grain is such a habit that even when evidence is plain as day, people still choose to go with the minority view to satisfy their own strange needs. I mean seriously. The guy keeps doing it. It's a big enough problem that he has been kicked out of well established organizations. Cmon.
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LMAO. I know you're joking, but are people sactually saying this? What does his manager's opinion mean? His manager is there to collect commission. It's in his best interest to keep getting Palhares fighting. Palhares could bring a razor in the ring and his manager will defend him.
I'll post the link again, though. He's been kicked out of BTT by Bustamante for injuring people over and over to the point that they couldn't deal with it anymore.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/439252/Former-coach-Palhares-hurt-people-in-the-gym-a-lot/
With info like that, can you really say that "he doesn't know better" and use that as a valid excuse? If he doesn't know better, he shouldn't be participating.
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Yeah, I linked to the rebuttal from Alex Davis (Palhares's manager) from the article you posted. In all seriousness, I think only BJJ_rage is defending him at this point. He's a good poster but I disagree with him here.
Renzo defended him last time-- not Fitch, but when he got booted from the UFC. I wonder what Renzo would have to say now?
Are ANY pro fighters really defending him at this point?
In any case, whether intentional or not, it keeps happening. I don't think you need a "why" at this point. You have the "what," which should be enough. It's a damn shame too, because he's that good. He may be able to go in and sub Robbie Lawler tomorrow, he's definitely a top tier guy, but he does not belong in there at this point.
Do you think a one year suspension would get his attention?
And I'll add one more thing: Those eye gouges leave me convinced he is just doing this shit on purpose. The retard act ain't working. Athletic commission ought to overturn this to a N/C or just outright DQ. Shields got fucked. What a shitty ref. Refs should just auto DQ on the second gouge.
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this, exactly this. there are only two options: intentional or unintentional. both mean he shouldn't be allowed to fight anyone, ever. if you don't have the mental capacity to let go when you're supposed to, you should be no more eligible to get licensed than you would be if you did it on purpose.
he got kicked out of the UFC. he did it in every fight since then. nothing gets his attention.
most definitely, mazzagatti fucked up so bad in this one it isn't even funny. i'd DQ him on general principle for playing the dumb card after every fucking infraction. the guy has been fighting for 11 years, yet he acts dumbfounded every time he's warned about something basic. what, i can't push his face away with my hand if my fingers are in his eyes? how come??
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Edited my above post because it was, once again, MAZZAGATI that screwed up the Lesnar/Mir one letting the sub go too long - just the Palhares fight where he wouldn't take a point for eye gouging. Man, that ref has some issues
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I don't know why it seems so difficult to get the commissions to overturn this type of horseshit, or why we NEVER see refs DQ dirty fighters in the big orgs (or at least in high profile fights like this).
When Mills Lane DQd Mike Tyson for biting Holyfield, it was after one warning. And if anyone remembers, that was the ref that TYSON's camp requested because they felt Holyfield headbutted too much in the first fight. Where are the refs with balls and a sense of fairness?
The only MMA DQ I can remember was Gibert Eye-vel for gouging Don Frye in Pride. I think he bit him too.
Look at all the grapppling DQs for comparatively minor infractions.
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you're right! the eye gouges had no effect on him getting mauled in the standup or looking "gassed." kudos to palhares for his superior skills, fight acumen, and conditioning.
I really don't want to comment on the eye gouging. I can't seem to find an angle where you actually see a finger in the eye, versus striking where it's usually very clear the time a finger enters the eye. With that said, I don't know if he did or not but am leaning toward he did as I don't think Shields would make that big of a deal about it for show.
As far as the submission goes though, I've watched this many times today and honestly, I don't think he did anything wrong here. I haven't seen this angle stated in any of the threads anywhere, so this is why I feel he wasn't wrong:
If you watch the footage closely, you will see that Shields taps multiple times and then Mazagatti jumps in. The thing to look for is how Mazagatti jumps in. Everyone says "Mazagatti was all over him" but in truth he wasn't. Mazagatti jumped in and "tapped" Palhares a few times. He was actually tapping him right on his ass or just above it near where Shields was tapping. Common sense says "two hands tapping instead of one". But in the middle of a tense fight are you really able to distinguish this in .15 seconds as some suggest? One second is a long time in grappling, but even in a grappling or mma bout it doesn't seem like a long time when you're trying to distinguish if that is the ref tapping you or your opponent.
Edit to add for above: Yes, I get it that we all tap in training and in grappling comps. It's well understood there that the ref doesn't jump in for a tap though. It's a respect thing and it's not a prizefight, nor does the ruleset say hold a submission until the ref stops it. So that is not a valid comparison.
Watch the point in which Palhares releases the hold. This is the point where Mazagatti does the correct thing and "grabs/pulls" instead of "taps" Palhares. The second he grabs Palhares shoulder with pressure, he lets go. Had Mazagatti grabbed Palhares by the shoulder or head in the first place and he held it this would be different. But truly watch it with an open mind thinking about this.
Palhares has held submissions too long in the past. I agreed with the UFC's banning him. I was glad he got a second shot in WSOF though, hoping he would change. The eye gouging if he truly was gouging instead of incidental contact is horrible and he should be held accountable. If I'm looking at this submission though, I place the blame on the ref.
It was a horrible job to stop the fight by tapping in the same general area the other guy is tapping. Have you ever seen Herb Dean bulldoze someone off? Of course you can't do that with an armlock in place and risk further damage, but the point is there needs to be a clear signal to the fighter that it is the ref coming in to stop the fight. There is too much focus going on in a fight to distinguish opponent vs referee's "taps". Grab around the neck or chin area to pull back, hug from behind, there are many alternatives that could prevent this.
As far as the submission goes though, I've watched this many times today and honestly, I don't think he did anything wrong here. I haven't seen this angle stated in any of the threads anywhere, so this is why I feel he wasn't wrong:
If you watch the footage closely, you will see that Shields taps multiple times and then Mazagatti jumps in. The thing to look for is how Mazagatti jumps in. Everyone says "Mazagatti was all over him" but in truth he wasn't. Mazagatti jumped in and "tapped" Palhares a few times. He was actually tapping him right on his ass or just above it near where Shields was tapping. Common sense says "two hands tapping instead of one". But in the middle of a tense fight are you really able to distinguish this in .15 seconds as some suggest? One second is a long time in grappling, but even in a grappling or mma bout it doesn't seem like a long time when you're trying to distinguish if that is the ref tapping you or your opponent.
Edit to add for above: Yes, I get it that we all tap in training and in grappling comps. It's well understood there that the ref doesn't jump in for a tap though. It's a respect thing and it's not a prizefight, nor does the ruleset say hold a submission until the ref stops it. So that is not a valid comparison.
Watch the point in which Palhares releases the hold. This is the point where Mazagatti does the correct thing and "grabs/pulls" instead of "taps" Palhares. The second he grabs Palhares shoulder with pressure, he lets go. Had Mazagatti grabbed Palhares by the shoulder or head in the first place and he held it this would be different. But truly watch it with an open mind thinking about this.
Palhares has held submissions too long in the past. I agreed with the UFC's banning him. I was glad he got a second shot in WSOF though, hoping he would change. The eye gouging if he truly was gouging instead of incidental contact is horrible and he should be held accountable. If I'm looking at this submission though, I place the blame on the ref.
It was a horrible job to stop the fight by tapping in the same general area the other guy is tapping. Have you ever seen Herb Dean bulldoze someone off? Of course you can't do that with an armlock in place and risk further damage, but the point is there needs to be a clear signal to the fighter that it is the ref coming in to stop the fight. There is too much focus going on in a fight to distinguish opponent vs referee's "taps". Grab around the neck or chin area to pull back, hug from behind, there are many alternatives that could prevent this.
