palestine/israel, what would it take?

[Jukai]

That's a really interesting point. Netanyahu and others until recently kept using this argument: Hamas is not legitimate because they do not represent all Palestinians (they were only elected in Gaza). The PA is not completely legitimate, because they do not represent all Palestinians. The problem is that Palestinians have no united front.

So recently, something happened that nobody expected. Hamas and Fatah reconciled. This was not to make Fatah more extreme, but to bring Hamas to the mainstream. Fatah understands that these rockets and violence do little good, and just give Israel an excuse to attack Gaza. So Fatah's position is that peace can only be achieved through dialogue. I think they also understand that if Palestinians look as docile and helpless as possible (no violence), they might gain more sympathy from Western countries.

So now that Hamas and Fatah reconciled, something that Netanyaha had essentially been calling for, he outright rejects them and refuses to continue negotiations. Why? He says that Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel does not negotiate with terrorist. However, factually, this is untrue. They've negotiated with Hamas and other terrorist organizations many times for prisoner swaps, often giving Hamas back their "terrorists".

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/A-history-of-Israels-prisoner-swaps

It's interesting because the rift between Fatah and Hamas seemed so extreme, that few people could have expected for them to ever come back together. So Netanyahu was caught off guard, and his excuse about Palestinians not having a legitimate united representative, fell apart.

Here are some interesting articles on the subject:

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014/excellent-commentary-on-hamas-pa-unity-deal/

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.586924

http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/on-ham...when-unity-loses-its-meaning-by-ramzy-baroud/

This is an old but interesting article, on the first Israeli elected to one of Fatah's legislative bodies: http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-first-israeli-jew-in-fatah-s-parliament-by-jonathan-cook/

Bibi is utter trash. Peres called him out for that, but Bibi is such a smooth talker, he just brushes it under the rug with another impassioned speech.

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

You're thinking of Samir K.untar.

i'd be pissed if this was my last name.

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

Probably because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has said numerous times that it will never recognize Israel as a state and will not stop attacking it or fighting agianst it until it is destroyed.

which is why they formed a unity government that recognizes israel

stupid zionist prop is just that.

 

[Jukai]

i'd be pissed if this was my last name.

 

[uWot]

Bibi is utter trash. Peres called him out for that, but Bibi is such a smooth talker, he just brushes it under the rug with another impassioned speech.

It was hilarious when Obama and Sarkozy's mics were on (without them knowing), and they both called Bibi a liar.

Bibi's the master of spin. Soooooo irresistible to the US public with that Philadelphia accent of his.

 

[Jukai]

It was hilarious when Obama and Sarkozy's mics were on (without them knowing), and they both called Bibi a liar.

Bibi's the master of spin. Soooooo irresistible to the US public with that Philadelphia accent of his.

I blame his American education. He's so detached from the history of the region, all he cares about is his power.

 

[hydrobadazz]

The solution to peace starts with Hamas disarming and disbanding.

Yes I know what you're thinking I'm blind. But no, I condemn Israeli opression. But the problem is Hamas is hurting the Palestinan people.

How? By being dumb and falling into all traps of Israel. They want to show the Palestinian people in a bad light. Who is they? It's not the Israeli people but the Zionist.

By sending stupid rockets over especially ones that are not guided. They are allowing Israel to continue its campaign. And also losing all of the sympathy the world has been giving, also costing lot of lives.

 

[uWot]

I blame his American education. He's so detached from the history of the region, all he cares about is his power.

That's an interesting point. Jewish people who have grown up in a foreign country and decide to live in Israel, or foreigners who decide to enlist when they become 18, might have a lot to do with the conflict.

I'm not saying that them moving there is wrong, but this might explain why there's so much hatred, ignorance, and racism in Israel today. Many lack an understanding of their country's history, and the history of the surrounding area, so they're only able to see what's put in front of them. This makes them very susceptible to propaganda and general misinformation.

I know too many Jewish people here in Canada who hate Muslims just for being Muslims. Many believed that all Muslims want Israel and every Jewish person to be destroyed, and that that is the root of the conflict. It's a shame really.

 

[Jukai]

That's an interesting point. Jewish people who have grown up in a foreign country and decide to live in Israel, or foreigners who decide to enlist when they become 18, might have a lot to do with the conflict.

I'm not saying that them moving there is wrong, but this might explain why there's so much hatred, ignorance, and racism in Israel today. Many lack an understanding of their country's history, and the history of the surrounding area, so they're only able to see what's put in front of them. This makes them very susceptible to propaganda and general misinformation.

I know too many Jewish people here in Canada who hate Muslims just for being Muslims. Many believed that all Muslims want Israel and every Jewish person to be destroyed, and that that is the root of the conflict. It's a shame really.

Yup, new immigrants + the continuous growing religious minority (Israel was mostly founded by atheist or reform Jews) is causing the country to shift hard, hard right. I honestly don't see it getting any better. It's sickening to note that the moment Arafat leaves and Fatah gets moderate, reasonable leadership, Labor dissolves and Israeli politics is divided into the right (Kadima) and the super right (Likud).

 

[A Muse of Fire]

The way I see it, Israel is already victorious in that the Jews have a powerful state of their own. The only thing remaining for them to win is peace and long term security, but that should be seen as a shared goal for the Palestinians also (and the wider region). What I feel needs to happen is for the Palestinians, and surrounding Arab/Islamic states to accept that Israel's victory in existing needn't amount to automatically entailing a defeat and enduring humiliation for them.




No.

Used to be vehemently anti-Israel (beginning of Second Intifada) then, several years later, as I read more about it, performed a volte-face and became an admirer of the Jewish state and increasingly disgusted by the nature of the groups and individuals opposed to it. Simple as that.

It does not t make any sense for you to support continuous bombing if you think Isreal has already won. Or make sense to bomb gaza if there no intent to conquer it.

Likud just wants to look tough. This current conflict is their way of holding the coalition gov together. They dont want a truce. Not now not ever. Other Isrealis do as do the PLO and other groups. But likud no


I find it really disingenuous of you to take a strong side in a conflict you have no stake in.

 

[Zoti]

I just saw Abbas on television saying, it doesn't matter who started it. Let's stop it. Both sides agreed in 2012 to a seize fire. Let's do that.

And I couldn't agree more. This is what it takes to actually get this to a happy ending. But I think that Abbas first needs to regain control of the Gaza Strip. So he can actually talk for the whole of the Palestinian people.

I also think that at this point, and from my Israeli perspective, the Palestinians are the big losers in this whole thing. As time progress, they lose more and more in this game. The war with Israel benefit them less and less. A corporation with Israel can bring them statehood and prosperity. But I don't think they even see it as an option.

 

[lfd0311]

which is why they formed a unity government that recognizes israel

stupid zionist prop is just that.

No they didn't. How many times are you going to repeat this, after it's been pointed out (twice by me alone in this thread) that Hamas said outright that it would never recognize Israel? Oh, I bet you "didn't see" this post either...

 

[lfd0311]

How many israeli arabs have blown themselves up in the late 5 years? 2 million arabs with no citizenship right and they dont blow themselves up.

I don't remember reading about Palestinian suicide bombers period. Great point though....

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

damn it! i step for a few minutes to grab lunch you people get the other thread closed. try to be civil!

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

No they didn't. How many times are you going to repeat this, after it's been pointed out (twice by me alone in this thread) that Hamas said outright that it would never recognize Israel? Oh, I bet you "didn't see" this post either...

so hamas will never recognize israel yet they joined a unity government that recognizes israel? great.

why dont you ever comment on the likud members who say there will never be a palestinian state or the new president who is openly against a two state solution? seems you focus a whole lot on hamas when the current israeli government is just the same.

 

[Zoti]

I don't remember reading about Palestinian suicide bombers period. Great point though....

That's because the Israeli security forces are working really hard to prevent this. And because of the security wall.

Don't think for a second they are not trying. Because they are. There was an attempt a couple of days ago from the West Bank that got stopped by he security forces.

 

[lfd0311]

so hamas will never recognize israel yet they joined a unity government that recognizes israel? great.

Agian, how many times does it have to be pointed out that this didn't happen? Hamas backed out do to the demand that they recognize Israel. I posted quotes from one of Hamas' top guys, you ignored them.

why dont you ever comment on the likud members who say there will never be a palestinian state or the new president who is openly against a two state solution?

They are hard headed hardliners. And where are you getting that he is opposed to a two state solution? He has been in the past, but has warmed up to the idea as years have passed.

seems you focus a whole lot on hamas when the current israeli government is just the same

When Israel starts intentionally targeting school buses full of children, let me know, I'll be all over them too.

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

That's because the Israeli security forces are working really hard to prevent this. And because of the security wall.

Don't think for a second they are not trying. Because they are. There was an attempt a couple of days ago from the West Bank that got stopped by he security forces.

pretty sure they were talking about israeli palestinians.

"How many israeli arabs have blown themselves up"

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

Agian, how many times does it have to be pointed out that this didn't happen? Hamas backed out do to the demand that they recognize Israel. I posted quotes from one of Hamas' top guys, you ignored them.





They are hard headed hardliners. And where are you getting that he is opposed to a two state solution? He has been in the past, but has warmed up to the idea as years have passed.



When Israel starts intentionally targeting school buses full of children, let me know, I'll be all over them too.

gd it, how many times have i asked you not to break up my posts?

and if hamas has completely backed out, why is bibi saying abbas must break apart from the unity government with hamas? do explain that.

btw they are not hardliners, they are the ruling party, likud. and israel did intentionally target a school with white phos because they claim militants were hiding there, livni even came out and admitted to it.

 

[lfd0311]

gd it, how many times have i asked you not to break up my posts?

and if hamas has completely backed out, why is bibi saying abbas must break apart from the unity government with hamas? do explain that.

Oh, so you did read my post. Thought so

btw they are not hardliners, they are the ruling party, likud. and israel did intentionally target a school with white phos because they claim militants were hiding there, livni even came out and admitted to it.

Yes, they're hardliners. Thier the right wingers of Israel. Could you link me to what you're talking about?