palestine/israel, what would it take?

[uWot]

When Israel starts intentionally targeting school buses full of children, let me know, I'll be all over them too.

While a bus full of children is a sympathetic picture to paint, I see it as being no worse than dropping white phosphorous or rockets on the most densely populated enclosure in the world, that you know for a fact is filled with women and children. Israel controls who leaves and enters Gaza, so let's remember that. Given the rapid expansion of the Gaza population, one knows for a fact that there is a great percentage of those there who are children. According to the CIA database, 43.2% of Gazans are children between the ages of 0-14. Another 20% are between 15-24.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

When you shoot a rocket into a densely populated are, you are responsible for who the rocket kills. If you shoot a rocket, something made for the sole purpose of destruction, and it kills children/women, you can't say: Well it wasn't intentional. You intentionally shot off a rocket, therefore, you intentionally killed those who died in the attack.

 

[lfd0311]

While a bus full of children is a sympathetic picture to paint, I see it as being no worse than dropping white phosphorous or rockets on the most densely populated enclosure in the world, that you know for a fact is filled with women and children. Israel controls who leaves and enters Gaza, so let's remember that. Given the rapid expansion of the Gaza population, one knows for a fact that there is a great percentage of those there who are children. According to the CIA database, 43.2% of Gazans are children between the ages of 0-14. Another 20% are between 15-24.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

When you shoot a rocket into a densely populated are, you are responsible for who the rocket kills. If you shoot a rocket, something made for the sole purpose of destruction, and it kills children/women, you can't say: Well it wasn't intentional. You intentionally shot off a rocket, therefore, you intentionally killed those who died in the attack.

What was the US's response to this? I had not heard this story. I think Sammy pops made reference of it a few days ago, but it went right over my head.

 

[Zoti]

pretty sure they were talking about israeli palestinians.

"How many israeli arabs have blown themselves up"

Actually, he said:

Originally Posted by Rod1
How many israeli arabs have blown themselves up in the late 5 years? 2 million arabs with no citizenship right and they dont blow themselves up.

Israeli Arabs HAVE citizenship and equal rights. You guys keep getting Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians from the West Bank confused.

Israeli-Arabs - full citizens of Israel
Gaza Palestinians - Palestinian ID
West Bank Palestinians - Palestinian ID
East Jerusalem Palestinians - Have Israeli residency but not citizenship. Not sure what kind of ID they have.

 

[uWot]

What was the US's response to this? I had not heard this story. I think Sammy pops made reference of it a few days ago, but it went right over my head.

The white phosphorous is a separate story and happened years ago in Gaza.

Here's an article on it: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza

As for the rockets recently launched by Israel into Gaza, the US said that they would broker a cease fire, but then Netanyahu said that he wasn't talking to anyone about a cease fire and that a cease fire was not under consideration.

Here's a list of stories about the civilian casualties:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.604546

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/two-n...d-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires.html

http://time.com/2973658/israel-gaza-hamas-war-operation-protective-edge/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-despite-growing-gaza-death-toll-9598821.html

 

[Rod1]

Actually, he said:


Israeli Arabs HAVE citizenship and equal rights. You guys keep getting Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians from the West Bank confused.

Israeli-Arabs - full citizens of Israel
Gaza Palestinians - Palestinian ID
West Bank Palestinians - Palestinian ID
East Jerusalem Palestinians - Have Israeli residency but not citizenship. Not sure what kind of ID they have.

Typo, i meant there are 2 million arabs with no travel restrictions or anything and they arent blowing themselves up and neither they want Israel gone.

Behind extremism there is desperation, its not that all muslims want Israel gone.

 

[uWot]

Actually, he said:


Israeli Arabs HAVE citizenship and equal rights. You guys keep getting Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians from the West Bank confused.

Israeli-Arabs - full citizens of Israel
Gaza Palestinians - Palestinian ID
West Bank Palestinians - Palestinian ID
East Jerusalem Palestinians - Have Israeli residency but not citizenship. Not sure what kind of ID they have.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally ignoring the facts, or if you're genuinely ignorant of them, but Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights as non Arab Israelis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/human-rights-in-israel-and-occupied-palestine/12546

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginalize-palestinian-arab-citizens

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8165338.stm

http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/arab-citizens-of-israel/arab-minority-rights/

 

[Zoti]

Typo, i meant there are 2 million arabs with no travel restrictions or anything and they arent blowing themselves up and neither they want Israel gone.

Behind extremism there is desperation, its not that all muslims want Israel gone.

So you mean the Israeli Arab. Who are Israeli citizens.

Just so you know, they are rioting, attacking people and throwing rocks in Jerusalem and many other mixed or Arab only cities. Israelis don't go shopping at their cities and villages because they will be attacked. They have pulled people out of their cars, beat them up and burned their cars.

These are Israeli Arabs again, not Palestinians.

On the other hand, there is a small (unfortunately) minority in the Israeli Arab population who knows what it good for them. In Acre, some people came over to riot and were sent away by the local Arab merchants telling them "don't ruin our livelihood".

The situation is tense. Like I told a couple of days ago, I was driving on the main highway and there is a bridge that goes over it. It connects an Arab village with the road across the highway. They had a police car stationed on it because the locals will throw rocks down on cars traveling on the highway. These are Israeli Arabs and a few years ago they killed a driver.

 

[Edgar Allan Hoe]

the israelis have a clear goal.
slowly annex the west bank and gaza,populate it with jews,call it israel

no president will be able to stop them as theyre a nuclear power
none of israels actions shows any willingness to actually work towards a palestinian state.
palestinians will of course radicalize even more

A non-declared nuclear power by the way. Israel thinks they are too cool for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

 

[Zoti]

I'm not sure if you're intentionally ignoring the facts, or if you're genuinely ignorant of them, but Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights as non Arab Israelis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/human-rights-in-israel-and-occupied-palestine/12546

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginalize-palestinian-arab-citizens

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8165338.stm

http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/arab-citizens-of-israel/arab-minority-rights/

I'm sorry to tell you but they do have equal rights. Does discrimination happen? Sure it does. But the law does protect the rights of all Israeli citizens equally.

 

[Edgar Allan Hoe]

I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone who believes Israel is in the right who wasn't Jewish.

The world pretty much views the whole thing as an invasion, now the world's largest concentration camp.

I'm of Irish stock and the whole thing rings bells for me.

Oh and on the whole moral equivalency issue: There is none, Israel kills and harms many more than Palistinians do. America supplying Israel with nukes and supporting them militarily is the only reason this hasn't already resolved itself.

Then you have Norman Finklestein, a Jew who is extremely crtitical against Israel. He uses so many facts in his arguments, it makes the Israeli spokespeople resort to emotional babble. It's very interesting.

[YT]p_m6bxGLuO0[/YT]

 

[Jukai]

Norman Finklestein makes up facts on the spot and is known to cite completely unsourced reports that oftentimes contradict each other to make points. There are a lot of Jews who are anti-israel, like Ilan Papp

 

[Rod1]

So you mean the Israeli Arab. Who are Israeli citizens.

Just so you know, they are rioting, attacking people and throwing rocks in Jerusalem and many other mixed or Arab only cities. Israelis don't go shopping at their cities and villages because they will be attacked. They have pulled people out of their cars, beat them up and burned their cars.

These are Israeli Arabs again, not Palestinians.

On the other hand, there is a small (unfortunately) minority in the Israeli Arab population who knows what it good for them. In Acre, some people came over to riot and were sent away by the local Arab merchants telling them "don't ruin our livelihood".

The situation is tense. Like I told a couple of days ago, I was driving on the main highway and there is a bridge that goes over it. It connects an Arab village with the road across the highway. They had a police car stationed on it because the locals will throw rocks down on cars traveling on the highway. These are Israeli Arabs and a few years ago they killed a driver.

Where are the acts of terrorism? for many years the excuse is that arabs want to destroy Israel, but it seems they only want to destroy Israel when their lives are shitty as fuck.

 

[Edgar Allan Hoe]

Norman Finklestein makes up facts on the spot and is known to cite completely unsourced reports that oftentimes contradict each other to make points. There are a lot of Jews who are anti-israel, like Ilan Papp

 

[uWot]

I'm sorry to tell you but they do have equal rights. Does discrimination happen? Sure it does. But the law does protect the rights of all Israeli citizens equally.

You making a statement that is contract to fact, is not evidence. It's just that: a statement that is contrary to fact.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/most-arabs-can-t-buy-most-homes-in-west-jerusalem-1.280392

http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/comprehensive-discriminatory-legislation.html

http://electronicintifada.net/conte...ls-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767

http://adalah.org/Public/files/Disc...criminatory-Bills-19th-Knesset-24-06-2013.pdf

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/24/world/la-fg-israel-arab-laws-20110324

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html

 

[uWot]

Norman Finklestein makes up facts on the spot and is known to cite completely unsourced reports that oftentimes contradict each other to make points. There are a lot of Jews who are anti-israel, like Ilan Papp

 

[Jukai]

Norman is an extremist and I am aware of his criticisms. Ilan Pappe makes greats points as well. Not familiar with Tom Segev though. I'll check him out.

It's just refreshing to see Jews who question the legitimacy of Israel's actions. Too many young people are getting sucked into the propaganda.

Tom Segev is probably my favorite of the new historians (next to Benny Morris, but despite being highly critical of Israel, he gets painted as an Israeli supporter). He explains his points well but outside of leaving out a few details here and there, he is pretty straight forward. Avi Shlaim is another, and to lesser extents, Morris and Baruch Kimmerling. Their main works are all worth a read, as long as you look at it to get info on the bigger picture

 

[Jukai]

I would add Miko Peled, though he's not anti-Israel.

I certainly wouldn't label Finkelstein anti-Israel. He's quite pro-Israel. That of course isn't to say that he's pro-Israeli government. But he is very pro-Israel.

He said on many occasions that he doesn't support BDS because he believes that those who support it want to destroy Israel. He even said in his now infamous Barat interview: "Because, if we end the occupation and bring back six million Palestinians and we have equal rights for Arabs and Jews, there

 

[uWot]

Then you have Norman Finklestein, a Jew who is extremely crtitical against Israel. He uses so many facts in his arguments, it makes the Israeli spokespeople resort to emotional babble. It's very interesting.

[YT]p_m6bxGLuO0[/YT]

Just the way that Crosstalk is set up (the rules saying you can jump in whenever you want) always makes for interesting and dramatic conversations. Love me some Crosstalk and the expert bear-poker Peter Lavelle. Sometimes he reminds me of Ariel Helwani.

I would suggest reading Miko Peled's book "The General's Son". It's very good. There are a few of his talks on YouTube. He's far more moderate than Norman, and much less intense/polarizing (in a good way).

 

[uWot]

ALL of that came out last year. That whole thing threw me.

The Barak interview was 2 years ago. Even before that, I find he's been quite clear (it's the understanding that I've had) that he's pro-Israeli people and anti-Israeli government actions. I think it's an important distinction to make. It was pretty interesting, but honestly not that surprising, that he took that position on BDS.

I think it's important to clarify this, because it's kind of like Shlomo Ben-Ami's case. When interviewed by Democracy Now, he said that he didn't support the occupation. Then he quickly follow up with saying that he wanted to be clear that it's not because he cares about the Palestinians, but because he cares about Israelis, and that they can't be safe if this continues. If he didn't clarify that, some people might think that he was anti-Israel.

 

[Jukai]

The Barak interview was 2 years ago. Even before that, I find he's been quite clear (it's the understanding that I've had) that he's pro-Israeli people and anti-Israeli government actions. I think it's an important distinction to make. It was pretty interesting, but honestly not that surprising, that he took that position on BDS.

I think it's important to clarify this, because it's kind of like Shlomo Ben-Ami's case. When interviewed by Democracy Now, he said that he didn't support the occupation. Then he quickly follow up with saying that he wanted to be clear that it's not because he cares about the Palestinians, but because he cares about Israelis, and that they can't be safe if this continues. If he didn't clarify that, some people might think that he was anti-Israel.

The BSD thing was a year ago, where he shit all over just about everyone who was on a panel with him

As for "anti-Israel" I mean people who are critical of most of Israel's actions during its existence. I'm not accusing him of wanting Israel to disappear.