Opinions on wrestlers in bjj

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by bumma, Dec 6, 2005.

  1. bumma

    bumma White Belt

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    Hey everyone,

    A few weeks ago I placed third in my first submission grappling tournament. Being a wrestler, I won my first few matches by taking kids down controlling them from the top (except for one match where I armbarred a kid from mount). If I started to lose good position and I knew they were going to slip into full guard I'd stand up and let the kid get up so I could take him down again. I noticed that because of this I got alot of dirty looks and even heard someone say "its stupid. hes just a wrestler." A buddy of mine used the same strategy and won his division because of it but got the same reactions from everyone. I was wondering what everyone here thought. Is it "cheap" to take kids down and let them up and do it again? Is it frowned upon when wrestlers enter these tournaments? Because to me winning was all that mattered, not working on my guard game during a competition. Thanks for the input.
     
  2. blanko

    blanko Guest

    well yes and no. It's not a wrestling competition so ofcourse they will feel like you are abusing the rules if you treat it like a wrestling match. However there are ways they can avoid the takedown, better ways to pull guard, or even take you down themselves. If you did that to me (kept taking me down) and i knew that i could not take you down. I would just lie there ala royler vs Sak and invite you to the ground.
     
  3. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    bumma,
    You will hear all kinds of thoughts on this BUT mine is this.
    You are exposing one of the weaknesses of the style they are practicing.
    Or at the very least exposing the weakness IN THEIR game.
    But having done BJJ myself I know our practices placed very little emphasis on take downs and our live sessions were always from the knees.
    SO here goes:
    If they cannot sub you when YOU take them down or they cannot take YOU down then is that YOUR fault.
    I don't think so.
    If they want to beat you eventually they are going to either have to A) keep you down when you take them there or B) be able to take you down.

    You took 3rd, how did you lose in the qualifiers?
     
  4. Joey Guidice

    Joey Guidice Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    What devision were you in?...if you were in a beginer devision and you had a lot of wrestling then you were sandbagging and thats not cool. If you were in the right skill dev and all that then more power to you man. I come from a wrestling backround and i've been doing BJJ for two years now. THe wrstling helps a lot but when you compete you hafta enter the right dev or you'll be a sandbagger which is not good for you or anyone else in that dev.
     
  5. bumma

    bumma White Belt

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    I was in beginner/intermediate. And I see what you mean when you say I could have been sandbagging it but in this particular tournament all the kids I went against went from novice to advanced. I remember the one kid I lost to won his first match by flying armbar in like 3 seconds. Oh, and I lost to him because I got sloppy trying to take him down and we got caught in a scramble. I eventually bellied down out of instinct (still can't seem to get rid of that haha) and got caught with a rear naked choke.
     
  6. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    You didn't break any rules.
    You were better on your feet, the other guy was better off his back. You used this knowledge to your advantage and won the match. That's called "intelligent". Don't buy into the "cheap" talk. Staying in someone's guard when you know they are better than you in that position is arrogance and it has no place in contact sports.

    That said, you obviously need to work on your guard game. The other guy should go work on his takedowns and takedown defense. Good luck

    Some people would see the method that blanko described as cheap, but it's legal and if you can win by using your strengths, I say go for it.
     
  7. Gaylon Cooper

    Gaylon Cooper Orange Belt Professional Fighter

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    I think that you are show one of the true weakness of BJJ is he takedown. I have tons of wrestling exprience and very little grappling exprience. Do to my wrestling I can compete a much higher level grappling then others that do not have the same time in.

    Hell if wrestling gave out belts I think I would be some level of blackbelt.
     
  8. Gaylon Cooper

    Gaylon Cooper Orange Belt Professional Fighter

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    You know even in the wrestling world some can call that as cheap too. When it comes to winning and lossing, I would rather win. When it comes to training I would rather learn, than win.
     
  9. blanko

    blanko Guest

    woa, i did not say it was "cheap". It might be an "abuse" of the rules so to speak but i would not call it "cheap". My point is this: Takedowns are a PART of sub/grappling and not the whole thing. So if you treat sub grappling like a traditional wrestling match then SOME people who came to "grapple" are going to be annoyed. If they wanted to enter a takedown contest they would have entered a wresting tourney. Know what i mean? It does not go with the spirit of tournament/style. That being said, i don't really like guard pullers either. To me sub grappling is when you mix a little bit of takedowns (w/o pulling guard) and the rest is "grappling on the ground".
     
  10. blanko

    blanko Guest

    let's face it, you were not fighting in ABU DABI nor were you fighting for money. It was supposed to be an amature event that consisted of "submission grappling"... Ofcourse some would feel annoyed that you treated it like a wrestling match.
     
  11. Coach Couzo

    Coach Couzo Orange Belt

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    I agree with MadMonkey - if you had years of wrestling experience and you entered as a white belt (beginner), then shame on you. Because of my wrestling and Judo experience, I attempt to enter higher divisions in BJJ competitions. It is a great way to test my overall grappling skill level.

    One point to keep in mind, the goal of wrestling is to pin (fall) your opponent. All techniques and rules are designed with that goal in mind. Taking someone down and letting them up repeatedly without attempting to score a fall is missing the ultimate goal. This 'tactic' is similar to scoring a safety in Football and then allowing the other team to intercept the ball, followed by a ball-strip and another safety.... Sure, you might win, but you have some serious flaws in your game.

    Similarly, the goal in Sport BJJ is to submit your opponent. Sport BJJ is not MMA, wrestling, or
     
  12. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    I've been punched in the face for taking a guy down and letting him up (wrestling). But if he hadn't been so shitty on his feet, I wouldn't have been able to do that. If he didn't punch me when he did, I would have tech'd his ass.

    So yeah, I've been called sheap for winning. But it's still winning. If you can take someone down and totally dominate more power to you. If not, use what you got. BUT, work on the rest of your game in practice.
     
  13. Gsoares2***

    Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

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    So basicly your using wrestling to win a bjj competition?

    Why not just enter a wrestling competition then? Doesnt it kind of defeat the purpose of bjj if your not actualy using it?

    This is no different than a bjj guy going into a judo competition and pulling guard to wrk the ground game. Your isolating the game so bjj guys cant use bjj on you...
    If you continue to compete like that, it might last a little while in the lower levels. Eventually youll run into a guy who has a bjj game and a takedown game and you will just be screwed. Better to learn the ground game and try to apply it earlier on. Or continue on your path, build a wrestler and be a very one sided gappler, instead of versatile and comfortable from any position.
     
  14. Gaylon Cooper

    Gaylon Cooper Orange Belt Professional Fighter

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  15. Gaylon Cooper

    Gaylon Cooper Orange Belt Professional Fighter

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    Then why not start from the knees instead of the feet then?
     
  16. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    its not cheap, or against the rules...but you do realize that its fucking lame right? if i saw you competing like that and knew i had to go against you, id sit down right on my ass from second the match started...and i wouldnt get up for the end of the world. fuck points players.
     
  17. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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  18. sproggdawg

    sproggdawg Nap Facilitator

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    Sandbagging aside, I say what you did was fine . I dont know how good a wrestler you are, so I wonder if the outcome would have been different had you competed in a more advanced division. A smart and talented grappler should be able to keep you on the ground after you take him down, or attempt to sub you quickly before you can reach your feet. Someone said earlier that you exposed a weakness in your opponents game and I agree. Many of the guys you faced were not advanced enough to deal with the adversity, although apparently at least one was. I say more power to you, but continue to work on your ground game. As you get to the higher divisions the tactics you used wont get you very far.
     
  19. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    There ain't nuthin wrong with that either. Again, its called "intelligence". No one in their right mind walks into a match saying "I'm going to take my worst weapon and use it against his best weapon."

    I don't know if lame is the word, annoying is close, frustrating is closer. (assuming you're the one on the receiving end of the one-demensional pwnage)
     
  20. LiverThrow

    LiverThrow Blue Belt

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    haha fuck them, they are just pissed because they have trouble beating you... im not a grappler but somehow i can manage to take people down to the ground... i got good balance and have strong legs etc... i took down a good grappler twice in a row once and he has never liked me since... he competes regularly and heres comes a guy who have never trained that wrestle him down in his own club... he dont like me haha but its just jeolousy,,, they are pissed because you are a better figher then them... if you would do what you do but get subbed and lost all the time nobody would be pissed if you were more of wrestler. but when you start winning over them you will hear all kind of bitchy shit
     

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