Opinions on wrestlers in bjj

[praetor6]

Screw them! Just because you didn't win how you wanted them to doesn't mean crap. Keep doing what works. I'm a bjj guy myself but I wouldn't cry if someone did something unexpected. Roll with it.

 

[Commissar]

You didn't cheat, but it wasn't very good. If you're going to enter a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournament, you should use Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. What you did was equal to a BJJ guy entering a Judo tournament, and pulling guard to win by submission. The point of Judo competitions is to try to win by ippon. The point of a BJJ tournament is to try to win by submission.

You tried to win by points, and essentially you were stalling.

 

[Commissar]

Screw them! Just because you didn't win how you wanted them to doesn't mean crap. Keep doing what works. I'm a bjj guy myself but I wouldn't cry if someone did something unexpected. Roll with it.

Well, there's a difference between 'doing something unexpected' and 'playing a different sport'.

This person was clearly not interested in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so he shouldn't be competing in it.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Well, there's a difference between 'doing something unexpected' and 'playing a different sport'.

This person was clearly not interested in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so he shouldn't be competing in it.

I disagree. You should be allowed to do anything that is legal in the rules of the tournament. Against Judokas I use Judo. Against wrestlers I use wrestling. Against BJJers I use BJJ. Part of competing is adjusting your game plan to suit your opponent.

 

[Commissar]

I disagree. You should be allowed to do anything that is legal in the rules of the tournament. Against Judokas I use Judo. Against wrestlers I use wrestling. Against BJJers I use BJJ. Part of competing is adjusting your game plan to suit your opponent.

Thats what I was saying.

Against BJJers, he clearly did not use BJJ. In a BJJ competition, he did not use BJJ.

 

[Kawlinz]

You didn't cheat, but it wasn't very good. If you're going to enter a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournament, you should use Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. What you did was equal to a BJJ guy entering a Judo tournament, and pulling guard to win by submission. The point of Judo competitions is to try to win by ippon. The point of a BJJ tournament is to try to win by submission.

You tried to win by points, and essentially you were stalling.

First off, most Judo tournies don't allow pulling guard. Winning by ippon isn't 'the point' of Judo, it's just one of the ways you can win.

It's like a standup fighter complaining in MMA that he gets taken down (Gilbert Yvel comes to mind). Do you think the groundfighter cares about the way the other guy wants to play? Of course not, the groundplayer thinks to themselves "Um, groundwork isn't against the rules, of course I'm going to use it".

Just because you look down upon something, doesn't mean it's wrong. I remember not too long ago a post about some BJJer using a sitting butterfly guard in wrestling, and using his opponent's weight to put him on his back when they pushed. The BJJers said it was a 'smart tactic'... but clearly he's not wrestling. His post also included some wrestlers at his school / tourney (can't remember) and they were complaining (just like you guys) about his winning tactic, by saying "learn to wrestle".

To summerize, The point of competing is to win... not 'win by using submission', or 'win by using bjj'. The point is to use the rules of the BJJ to win your matches. That's it. Anything else is not a winning attitude.

 

[sproggdawg]

yes, i was refering to just sitting down into your guard as soon as the match start, a la barret yoshida. however, barret has ill jiu jitsu and adopts the, "if i don't submit you, ill probably lose on points" mentality that i think jiu jitsu is all about...so i still like him 1000X more than control/takedown oriented grapplers like monson, kerr, etc.

i guess what im trying to say is i like versatile and well-rounded grapplers like leo viera and marcelo who have good standup, groundwork (top and bottom), and are submission-oriented.

edit: i'd also like to add that the only thing worse than a buttscooter is someone who is afraid to get into the guard.

Cool, thats what I assumed you meant. I think everyone likes well rounded and versatile fighters. They are more fun to watch and they keep the matches multidimensional. Guys like yoshida are cool too, id much rather see 20 failed subs than 16 takedowns. Speaking of buttscooters, check out Eddie Bravo versus Royler Gracie. Eddie made it very apparent where he wanted to be. It surprised me because Ive seen Eddie start from his feet quite a few times. Dont get me wrong though, i think Bravo is sick. It would have bothered me more had his guard game not been so sweet.

 

[knoxpk]

Just because you look down upon something, doesn't mean it's wrong. I remember not too long ago a post about some BJJer using a sitting butterfly guard in wrestling, and using his opponent's weight to put him on his back when they pushed. The BJJers said it was a 'smart tactic'... but clearly he's not wrestling. His post also included some wrestlers at his school / tourney (can't remember) and they were complaining (just like you guys) about his winning tactic, by saying "learn to wrestle".

I dont personally know any (wrestling) coach in America that would complain if his student won the state finals using this technique. If its in the rules and the opponent cannot beat them so what?

 

[fozzit]

Dood don't worry about it.. PEople are just bitter because they loss plain and simple. The beauty of jiu jitsu is it shouldn't be pigeonholed, and cross training should be encouraged to perfect your jiu jitsu. People have different skills, and the fact you are a wrestler gives you great base, good control, good take downs, and a automatic edge. Being in Jiu Jitsu people should adapt to this sort of thing. I hate when people say something isn't jiu jitsu and something is judo or something is jiu jitsu. Fuck that shit. You won using your strengths. Good job. Take the W and advance your game. Like someone else said, don't be one sided and work your bottom game, but that doesn't mean not to continue advancing your obviously good top game.

Play on playa

 

[fozzit]

Thats what I was saying.

Against BJJers, he clearly did not use BJJ. In a BJJ competition, he did not use BJJ.

Ehhhhhhhh............

 

[Kawlinz]

I dont personally know any (wrestling) coach in America that would complain if his student won the state finals using this technique. If its in the rules and the opponent cannot beat them so what?

A coach would't care (about using sitting butterfly in wrestling) but i'm sure opponents and onloockers opposition, maybe general wrestling fans might get ticked off.

 

[knoxpk]

Trust me, wrestling is HIGHLY competitive if their team wins they dont care how usually. Ofcourse the opponents wont like it, they never do.

God the baltimore ravens WERE UGLY the year they won the super bowl...all that defense and running the ball.....but they won and thats all that matters.

 

[fozzit]

judo competitions dont alllow jumping guard.. but you can definately pull guard by way of fake tomo nage... same application....

 

[heartlesshero]

It's cute that you can take them down at will but you won't really get any better. When you start facing better guys and top shelf jiu jitsu talent, they'll sub you from the bottom like a kid. The only wrestlers I've seen do stuff like that and win are Mark Kerr and Jeff Monsoon. And they are world class... even an Olympic gold medal winner like Kenny Monday got subbed by in a submission/real wrestler event called Simply the Best. I'm not knocking your game plan but you're strong with just what you've got, and when you go to the advanced or pro divisions, that takedown lay and pray don't work.

 

[fozzit]

dood when you go into competition you o in with what works best to win.. I dont knock people for jumping guard even tho i disagree with it.. you know?... he is just starting out and learning the art... give this cat some time to develop his skills.. he obviously wont advance belt wise until he completes his game more, but he already has a quick advantage..

 

[n...not crazy]

If you're not working for a sub or dominant position, that's shameful. Perhaps you should investigate passing the guard, it is quite interesting. Watch Diego Sanchez fight, he goes for the win.

Is what you did cheap? YES. And it will not work at higher levels of BJJ. But keep it up, us BJJ guys need people like you to help round out our games. We can learn from you as well.

I don't know how you could be content with this if you never endangered your opponents. You won several matches, in a sport where the goal is to achieve dominant position and submit your opponent, without endangering your opponents to either of these ends. This is fact.

I'll bet you use all the cheats when you play video games...

 

[Ude_Garami]

congrats, keep it up.

 

[Masakatsu Funaki #1]

I am guessing none of you can read at all. I could have sworn that I saw, that the guy entered a SUBMISSION WRESTLING TOURNAMENT, not a BJJ tournament. Since when did Submission Wrestling tournaments, all get clasified as BJJ tournaments? You guys suck, and yes this includes the poster also, for leading you idiots on with the title.

Anywho, In submission wrestling, do whatever works for you. Dont be so narrow minded though. Wrestling is a lot more broad then people think. There are many submissions found in wrestling that you can apply. I would diffently learn how to pass guard. For that seek some BJJ guys, cause their guard offense/defesne game is crazy. (Although I prefer a sambo/judo approach to the guard...aka dont be there for too long. This could actully work better with your wrestling base.)

 

[Kawlinz]

If you're not working for a sub or dominant position, that's shameful. Perhaps you should investigate passing the guard, it is quite interesting. Watch Diego Sanchez fight, he goes for the win.

Is what you did cheap? YES. And it will not work at higher levels of BJJ. But keep it up, us BJJ guys need people like you to help round out our games. We can learn from you as well.

I don't know how you could be content with this if you never endangered your opponents. You won several matches, in a sport where the goal is to achieve dominant position and submit your opponent, without endangering your opponents to either of these ends. This is fact.

I'll bet you use all the cheats when you play video games...

Cheap is what scrubs say when they get beaten by a tactic they don't like or bother to practice against. And he's not cheating.

Stop saying that the goal is to submit your opponent... because it's not, it's just one of the way to win.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Thats what I was saying.

Against BJJers, he clearly did not use BJJ. In a BJJ competition, he did not use BJJ.

That's not what I was saying though. In a BJJ competition, wrestling is a legal strategy. Therefore, it is ok to use. It is narrow minded to think that any one strategy works in all situations. As a competitor I am never ever offended if the opposition starts using wrestling. When spectating I also never mind wrestlers competing. I secretly root for the wrestlers because:

1. Many confuse pure BJJers and expose weaknesses in their training. BJJ taught without takedowns is like wrestling taught without breakdowns.
2. I wrestled for a year and a half in high school (and being so long ago I forgot most of my training from then).
3. Many BJJers confuse wrestlers and expose weaknesses in their training. ;-) Grappling without submissions is like wrestling without pins.

Wrestling is the religion of most wrestlers; it is fun watching such "monotheists" fighting each other. Often it's the insane conditioning and drilling that most teams preach which gives wrestlers an edge. Heck, it is not unknown for wrestlers in the off season to take up unrelated sports like boxing and completely dominate!!! However, I've seen BJJ schools and clubs that strive for that level of conditioning and drilling too. That's why in higher level divisions between roughly equally conditioned competitors, wrestling sometimes loses effectiveness against BJJ.

P.S. In grappling you need mental toughness, conditioning, skill, and knowledge. One paradox about amateur competition is that time contraints often prevent people from getting good at one or two of those traits. I've seen knowledgable grapplers who gassed or choked (not the lack of oxygen kind) despite their high skill level. I've seen super-conditioned and skilled wrestlers snatch defeat from the jaws of victory due to lack of knowledge. And don't get me started on the tough diesel guy who watched every fight tape but hardly spent much time on the mat. You got to be good at all four to win competitions.