Ongoing Team Lloyd Irvin Scandal - Part 6

[orangeclay]

Absolutely, yet that support is coming from outside the gym. There's seldom a planned, organized, career-centric strategy in place to deliberately develop full-time professional athletes.

This ^^ the "job" of these students was to become the best.

 

[acaijuice]

My review, and the other 1 star reviews about them hiring him are still there.

Yeah, the reviews are still there, but they don't have any posts since October. I thought they had all that crap about the model shoot with Matt the Rapist on the FB page. If I'm not wrong, perhaps they took it all down as a result of the backlash?

 

[The Real Pedro]

I think students really, really didn't want to get mounted by Lloyd, so they worked that much harder.

 

[LaBrian]

You don't think a position of power like that could corrupt an average person?

I'm paraphrasing Ryan Hall here, but very few demagogues set out to become that way. It's a process, offer a guy with questionable morals and a history of poor impulse control the unwavering allegiance of young men who are willing to do what ever he asks and that is how a cult is created.

I think Lloyd may have even had good intentions when he started training with Leo Dalla, he'd just been on trial for his life and narrowly escaped a long prison sentence. I know from personal experience BJJ can have incredible positive changes on someone's personality, but it takes guidance. Leo moves away, Lloyd is left to his own devices hooks up with Dan Kennedy as his new mentor, a man who is on record saying that he's in the business of building cults and there you go.

 

[mr violent]

Wouldn't either of those attorney's probably advise them against doing that?

any attorney with half a brain would advise them against it. particularly with a civil suit pending.

 

[ATecce]

Nah. Power doesn't corrupt. It amplifies what's already there. If a person has good impulse control, empathy, proactivity, a decent work ethic, and a desire to interact with others in a positive and fair way, it doesn't matter how much power you fire-hose onto them. Although they'll still make mistakes, they'll do what it takes to be good stewards of whatever they've got.

Generally, I find that most average human beings are already corrupt. The evil they commit tends to be petty and small-scale, but it's not due to any inherent goodness on their part, it's due to the lack of personal power and opportunity.

I have a much more tragic view of humans than you do.

http://psychology.about.com/od/classicpsychologystudies/a/stanford-prison-experiment.htm

 

[ATecce]

I'm paraphrasing Ryan Hall here, but very few demagogues set out to become that way. It's a process, offer a guy with questionable morals and a history of poor impulse control the unwavering allegiance of young men who are willing to do what ever he asks and that is how a cult is created.

I think Lloyd may have even had good intentions when he started training with Leo Dalla, he'd just been on trial for his life and narrowly escaped a long prison sentence. I know from personal experience BJJ can have incredible positive changes on someone's personality, but it takes guidance. Leo moves away, Lloyd is left to his own devices hooks up with Dan Kennedy as his new mentor, a man who is on record saying that he's in the business of building cults and there you go.

I don't disagree with any of this, in fact, it's exactly my point.

 

[BJJ Beginner]

I have a much more tragic view of humans than you do.

http://psychology.about.com/od/classicpsychologystudies/a/stanford-prison-experiment.htm

That experiment was highly flawed.

 

[LaBrian]

Yeah, the reviews are still there, but they don't have any posts since October. I thought they had all that crap about the model shoot with Matt the Rapist on the FB page. If I'm not wrong, perhaps they took it all down as a result of the backlash?

I'm not 100% sure but I think they hadn't posted anything since October when I wrot the review.

 

[RAWilliams]

I have a much more tragic view of humans than you do.

http://psychology.about.com/od/classicpsychologystudies/a/stanford-prison-experiment.htm

Hmm, you and I are pretty much on the same page. I see no evidence that those Stanford students, who were technically adults, possessed many of the positive character traits I listed. When empowered and protected from negative consequences for negative behavior, the majority chose the negative behavior freely and of their own will. Oddly, a few were able to resist-- such as the graduate student who called Zimbardo on the bad ethics of the situation and demanded that the experiment be stopped.

There are plenty of real-life corrections officers who are definitely in the position to do similar things as the Stanford students, who refrain from it. Even in the events leading up to the notorious Santa Fe Prison Riot, there were individuals among the prison staff who were protected by the rioting inmates simply because they did not abuse what power they had, and because they treated the inmates with dignity and basic respect despite massive opportunity to not do so.

I sometimes wonder if any follow-up studies were done to find out whether any of those Stanford students playing the role of guards, who gave in to their more sadistic tendencies, later "broke bad" or snapped in a way that "couldn't have been predicted".

Edited to add: I don't think the students in the experiment who displayed abusive behavior did so *because* they were given power. I think the impulses, and the desire to act on those impulses, was always there. They just didn't have the opportunity to do it without consequence. As soon as they had the opportunity, they went for it. A minute examination of those students' interaction with other people in positions of no authority could probably have shown similar behavior on a smaller scale. Plenty of people abuse wait staff, for example, when they don't think anyone is watching.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

What fascinates me about Lloyd's students is not just that he produced a lot of high-level prospects, but that they all developed unique and highly creative games. So, clearly there was a workshop-type environment going on where students were given room and encouraged to experiment. However, unlike other "creative" jiu-jitsu schools like 10th Planet, everything is high-percentage with Lloyd's students and seems to reflect a high-level grasp of fundamentals as well.

 

[ATecce]

Hmm, you and I are pretty much on the same page. I see no evidence that those Stanford students, who were technically adults, possessed many of the positive character traits I listed. When empowered and protected from negative consequences for negative behavior, the majority chose the negative behavior freely and of their own will. Oddly, a few were able to resist-- such as the graduate student who called Zimbardo on the bad ethics of the situation and demanded that the experiment be stopped.

There are plenty of real-life corrections officers who are definitely in the position to do similar things as the Stanford students, who refrain from it. Even in the events leading up to the notorious Santa Fe Prison Riot, there were individuals among the prison staff who were protected by the rioting inmates simply because they did not abuse what power they had, and because they treated the inmates with dignity and basic respect despite massive opportunity to not do so.

I sometimes wonder if any follow-up studies were done to find out whether any of those Stanford students playing the role of guards, who gave in to their more sadistic tendencies, later "broke bad" or snapped in a way that "couldn't have been predicted".

Well, the caveat I would add there is that Zimbardo chose 24 males from a larger pool of 70 based on whom he thought seemed the most psychologically healthy.

You might argue that it is hard to actually pick this up from proxies such as criminal records, and maybe that is the case. I'm not much persuaded that this nullifies the attempt to get the most psychologically healthy people. It certainly wasn't equivalent to a random sample.

The problem with doing follow-up studies is the ethical issues involved. Once people saw just how badly seemingly normal people behave towards their fellow human beings, it's hard to condone experiments which are likely to lead to those results.

This is actually also relevant to the Lloyd Irvin case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

[Leify]

What fascinates me about Lloyd's students is not just that he produced a lot of high-level prospects, but that they all developed unique and highly creative games. So, clearly there was a workshop-type environment going on where students were given room and encouraged to experiment. However, unlike other "creative" jiu-jitsu schools like 10th Planet, everything is high-percentage with Lloyd's students and seems to reflect a high-level grasp of fundamentals as well.

I'm fairly sure this happens at most top competition schools. An instructor in my association who runs a pretty competitive gym once said that his advanced class is really just a workshop. E.g. If a guy in the gym has been tearing it up with a certain move or series, then the others all collectively brainstorm how to beat it.

 

[ATecce]

That experiment was highly flawed.

Way to elaborate your argument sir! Moving on.

 

[Junior Skilo]

what allowed his fighters to improve so quickly?

http://www.insidebjj.com/2011/07/12/interview-with-lloyd-irvin/:


Inside BJJ
"If you could only pick one thing that an individual could start today that would improve their Jiu-Jitsu what would it be?"

Lloyd Irvin
"Drilling of transitions. I believe that is the most important aspect of making rapid improvements in Jiu-Jitsu. If you understand what all of the most important transitions are in Jiu-Jitsu and you focus on drilling them you

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I'm fairly sure this happens at most top competition schools. An instructor in my association who runs a pretty competitive gym once said that his advanced class is really just a workshop. E.g. If a guy in the gym has been tearing it up with a certain move or series, then the others all collectively brainstorm how to beat it.

I'm sure most schools are that way to a point, but Lloyd's students all were doing things (50/50, Keenan's many weird passes and transitions, etc.) that at times don't even resemble other existing techniques. And, again, it was all highly effective, highly technical, unlike some Eddie Bravo Double Dirty Diaper Control bullshit that counts for "innovative" otherwise.

 

[AcesUp22]

They will soon delete Mateo from there payroll.

 

[RAWilliams]

They will soon delete Mateo from there payroll.

I don't have an objection to the guy earning a living, because everyone needs to eat. But ideally he'd be fixing cars or washing windows or doing something that doesn't put him in a position of authority over women while allowing him to train in an art that will make him any more dangerous than it already is.

What's making him dangerous in many people's eyes is the position he's taking: that he's done nothing wrong, that it's the victim's fault, that he's the victim of unjust persecution, etc. Rationalizing and justifying his negative behavior, making up far-fetched explanations for other people's very predictable responses to it, and interpreting those negative responses as personal attacks on him instead of predictable negative responses to his own negative behavior, pretty much guarantees more of the same will occur the second he gives himself permission.

 

[mr violent]

They will soon delete Mateo from there payroll.

good. I don't have any problems with someone trying to make a living, and I don't think anybody here would have complained if he had started working at McDonalds, or in construction or something - but the fact that he's leading womens' classes without them knowing of his past is just absolutely awful.

 

[nickhh]

People with drive went their to get better. His students who wanted to succeed who were "home grown" had drive and that's a big part of it. Add in top level guys who are all working hard and you get success.

I'm at Caio's now and if you look at what we have done as a team in 18 months it's amazing. We went from a very good top heavy school to cranking out blue, purple, and brown belt champs. Give us a few more years and we should content at all the majors. If you say we cherry picked guys ok, look at some one like Benji. Prior to training with us was he a world beater? He has drive and now is surrounded by guys who are champion minded.

On any given day you have Caio, Yuri, Manny, Melo, Milton ,Samir, Queixinho, Denny, and tons of other world champs and former world champs pushing each other to be better.

You don't have to have a horrible culture to achieve success you just need the right level of talent and motivation imo. At IMA when the tide rises all boats float as long as your willing to put in the work