Movies Once Upon a Time in America (4hr 11min cut)

[GoodBadHBK]

Casino is the most overrated imo

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I think this movie is both underrated and overrated.

With so many versions that's an understandable position to have.

 

[Bullitt68]

I prefer to get the whole story and character development.

More isn't always better. Apocalypse Now is a case in point. Plus, the ambiguity with Max is so much better in the 229-minute version. The extra stuff is just that. Beyond just wanting to see everything shot, what of the extra 22 minutes do you really think is essential, as in you can't imagine the movie making sense or working as well without it?

IMO Heat is the movie that's overrated. I'm not really into superfluous action scenes and suspension of disbelief.

What was "superfluous" about anything in Heat? And most of it was based on real people and real events, so I'm also not clear on the "suspension of disbelief" part. Sounds like you just don't like action movies and don't care to give Heat a fair shake. Whatever floats your boat, but it's too bad, because Heat is a mightily impressive film.

 

[Highway99]

I think the 229 minute version is the Cannes cut.

I can't say for sure, but so far as I can tell the European theatrical cut in the 229min version, and the Cannes cut was 269 min. The 269 min cut may not have been the version played at Cannes, but it was at least Leone's preferred version of the film. The version in the OP would have been the 269min version if not some sort of "unforeseen right issues", according to wikipedia.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

More isn't always better. Apocalypse Now is a case in point. Plus, the ambiguity with Max is so much better in the 229-minute version. The extra stuff is just that. Beyond just wanting to see everything shot, what of the extra 22 minutes do you really think is essential, as in you can't imagine the movie making sense or working as well without it?



What was "superfluous" about anything in Heat? And most of it was based on real people and real events, so I'm also not clear on the "suspension of disbelief" part. Sounds like you just don't like action movies and don't care to give Heat a fair shake. Whatever floats your boat, but it's too bad, because Heat is a mightily impressive film.

Well I just mean since I saw the long version, which was based on Leone's preferred interpretation, and thought it was great I'm not really interested in watching the slightly less longest version to pick up the pace.

I guess maybe I am a bit of an action hater but just when it's action for action's sake. A lot of the movie is realistic, like the Val Kilmer shootout scene, but things like the armored truck being breached were a little over the top for me.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Casino is the most overrated imo

Well one thing I think Scorcese is great at is the intros. That car bomb to open the movie was pretty memorable.

 

[volodya]

Uh oh fellas, this is quickly evolving into a greast film score conversation.

IMO Heat is the movie that's overrated. I'm not really into superfluous action scenes and suspension of disbelief.

@Peteyandjia i would like to tell on this guy

 

[volodya]

@Bullitt68 do you have a soundtrack listing? Right now i am clearly listening to Rossini excerpt that i think is in this AND clockwork orange. IMDB is useless for this so far, and so is youtube. ...


edit: gosh did I fuck that up, but my question stands about finding credits for the music. I kinda like to know whom is exactly playing, really.

 

[volodya]

More isn't always better. Apocalypse Now is a case in point. Plus, the ambiguity with Max is so much better in the 229-minute version. The extra stuff is just that. Beyond just wanting to see everything shot, what of the extra 22 minutes do you really think is essential, as in you can't imagine the movie making sense or working as well without it?



What was "superfluous" about anything in Heat? And most of it was based on real people and real events, so I'm also not clear on the "suspension of disbelief" part. Sounds like you just don't like action movies and don't care to give Heat a fair shake. Whatever floats your boat, but it's too bad, because Heat is a mightily impressive film.

Bro doesn't like HEAT. Top 5 for me, but then again so is Platoon. I guess people like differemt things, but LMAO @ not appreciating HEAT.

 

[Bullitt68]

I can't say for sure, but so far as I can tell the European theatrical cut in the 229min version, and the Cannes cut was 269 min. The 269 min cut may not have been the version played at Cannes, but it was at least Leone's preferred version of the film. The version in the OP would have been the 269min version if not some sort of "unforeseen right issues", according to wikipedia.

Well I just mean since I saw the long version, which was based on Leone's preferred interpretation, and thought it was great I'm not really interested in watching the slightly less longest version to pick up the pace.

You both mention Leone's "preferred" version, but was it? I thought the 269-minute version was just his rough cut, like the first full version of the movie that he actually edited all the way through for screenings, and then he continued editing after that and got down to the 229-minute version. Did he actually talk about wanting to keep it at 269 minutes?

I guess maybe I am a bit of an action hater but just when it's action for action's sake.

Literally nothing in Heat is done "for action's sake." I think you've reduced Heat as if it's no different than a Wesley Snipes direct-to-video action movie. Don't be a snob or a hater. Watch it again with an open mind, focus on the doppelgänger trope, the prevalence of tragic flaws, the unbelievable sound design, the amazing performances from every last cast member. Give it a chance and tell me it doesn't rise in your esteem.

A lot of the movie is realistic, like the Val Kilmer shootout scene, but things like the armored truck being breached were a little over the top for me.

That was also based on a real event. Aside from Mann's meticulous research into real criminal activity in the US around that time and his work with real police officers going over case files, the two guys involved in the infamous North Hollywood shootout (which was the original inspiration for Heat, specifically its earlier life as the TV film LA Takedown) robbed two armored trucks before moving on to robbing banks, including hitting a Brink's truck and killing one of the guards in the process.

@Bullitt68 do you have a soundtrack listing? Right now i am clearly listening to tchaikovsky excerpt that i think is in this AND clockwork orange. IMDB is useless for this so far, and so is youtube. ...

Not sure what you mean by "listing." Are you just asking if I have a list of favorites? Not really. But I obviously can list movies with awesome scores. Anything done by the major composers - Bernard Herrmann, Elmer Bernstein, Henry Mancini, John Williams, Lalo Schifrin, Jerry Goldsmith, Danny Elfman, James Newton Howard, James Horner, Alan Silvestri, David Michael Frank, Hans Zimmer - is going to be great to one degree or another. Some of my favorites are Herrmann's music for Vertigo and North by Northwest, Bernstein's music for The Magnificent Seven and The Great Escape, Mancini's music for the Pink Panther films and Experiment in Terror, Williams' music for Jurassic Park, Schifrin's music for Enter the Dragon, Goldsmith's music for First Blood, Elfman's music for Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and Batman, Howard's music for Marked for Death and The Fugitive, Horner's music for Commando and Titanic, Silvestri's music for Predator and The Abyss, Frank's music for Above the Law and Out for Justice, and everyone knows Zimmer's stuff with Nolan but that collaboration aside I love his music for Rain Man and True Romance.

And then for just random movie music off the top of my head, I love Anton Karas' music for The Third Man, Eduard Artemyev's music for Stalker, Trevor Jones' music for The Last of the Mohicans, Mihály Víg's music for Werckmeister Harmonies, and Gustavo Santaolalla's music for Brokeback Mountain.

Bro doesn't like HEAT. Top 5 for me, but then again so is Platoon. I guess people like differemt things, but LMAO @ not appreciating HEAT.

Indeed, as I hate Platoon

 

[Highway99]

You both mention Leone's "preferred" version, but was it? I thought the 269-minute version was just his rough cut, like the first full version of the movie that he actually edited all the way through for screenings, and then he continued editing after that and got down to the 229-minute version. Did he actually talk about wanting to keep it at 269 minutes?

I'm going to skip to the chapter on OUATIA in the Frayling book tonight to hopefully get to the bottom of it. But from what I've read even the European theatrical cut was an acquiescence to the studios, but he still supported it unlike the American release.

 

[volodya]

You both mention Leone's "preferred" version, but was it? I thought the 269-minute version was just his rough cut, like the first full version of the movie that he actually edited all the way through for screenings, and then he continued editing after that and got down to the 229-minute version. Did he actually talk about wanting to keep it at 269 minutes?



Literally nothing in Heat is done "for action's sake." I think you've reduced Heat as if it's no different than a Wesley Snipes direct-to-video action movie. Don't be a snob or a hater. Watch it again with an open mind, focus on the doppelgänger trope, the prevalence of tragic flaws, the unbelievable sound design, the amazing performances from every last cast member. Give it a chance and tell me it doesn't rise in your esteem.



That was also based on a real event. Aside from Mann's meticulous research into real criminal activity in the US around that time and his work with real police officers going over case files, the two guys involved in the infamous North Hollywood shootout (which was the original inspiration for Heat, specifically its earlier life as the TV film LA Takedown) robbed two armored trucks before moving on to robbing banks, including hitting a Brink's truck and killing one of the guards in the process.



Not sure what you mean by "listing." Are you just asking if I have a list of favorites? Not really. But I obviously can list movies with awesome scores. Anything done by the major composers - Bernard Herrmann, Elmer Bernstein, Henry Mancini, John Williams, Lalo Schifrin, Jerry Goldsmith, Danny Elfman, James Newton Howard, James Horner, Alan Silvestri, David Michael Frank, Hans Zimmer - is going to be great to one degree or another. Some of my favorites are Herrmann's music for Vertigo and North by Northwest, Bernstein's music for The Magnificent Seven and The Great Escape, Mancini's music for the Pink Panther films and Experiment in Terror, Williams' music for Jurassic Park, Schifrin's music for Enter the Dragon, Goldsmith's music for First Blood, Elfman's music for Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and Batman, Howard's music for Marked for Death and The Fugitive, Horner's music for Commando and Titanic, Silvestri's music for Predator and The Abyss, Frank's music for Above the Law and Out for Justice, and everyone knows Zimmer's stuff with Nolan but that collaboration aside I love his music for Rain Man and True Romance.

And then for just random movie music off the top of my head, I love Anton Karas' music for The Third Man, Eduard Artemyev's music for Stalker, Trevor Jones' music for The Last of the Mohicans, Mihály Víg's music for Werckmeister Harmonies, and Gustavo Santaolalla's music for Brokeback Mountain.



Indeed, as I hate Platoon

I was asking about the listing because everything I can find suggests that he composed the soundtrack, but Rossini at least deserves credit for a small part of that. He did not compose that, which has me wondering what else in the film he did not compose.

And gosh, you really don't like Platoon? Why?

 

[volodya]

Casino is the most overrated imo

You should probably get banned right along with @LangfordBarrow IMO.

 

[volodya]

Okay, @Bullitt68 I have a question that you you might know in particular; is the Rossini being used because they are past the intellectual property window? Despite that, whatever orchestra performed should get a mention...

Guess I will finish the last 20 and watch the credits...

 

[Possum Jenkins]

The likability thing is whatever - I can see it hindering enjoyment for some people, but it doesn't for me - but I'd push back on the "lack of charisma" part. De Niro is De Niro, James Woods is incredibly dynamic and Max is extremely charismatic, and James Hayden ("Kids' stuff"), who was supposed to rule the '80s along with Mickey Rourke but died of a heroin overdose at 29 (and Rourke dedicated The Pope of Greenwich Village to his fallen friend), is great as Patsy, the not-quite-psycho who could flip the psycho switch when it was go time. I also love William Forsythe in everything, so even though his character is the thinnest among the adult criminals, I also love him in it (I also always chuckle when he's busting De Niro's balls after he goes to the opium den following his disastrous "date" with Deborah).

For sure, the characters as people aren't "likable," but I nevertheless like watching their shenanigans. They're extremely compelling characters and their arc is an emotional rollercoaster expertly handled by Leone.

Good shit. Mostly agree.

Had no idea about James Hayden and had to look it up. Holy shit!

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

IMO Heat is the movie that's overrated. I'm not really into superfluous action scenes and suspension of disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief? SWAT teams and some military units literally use some of the scenes from that film for training techniques some of the actors were using in the shootouts. You can’t get more real than that. ‘Heat’ is definitely rated about where it should be.


If it’s not your cup of tea, fair enough. But there’s a ton about that film that pushes the boundaries of heist films. And that’s before even getting into the superb casting and actual performances.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Suspension of disbelief? SWAT teams and some military units literally use some of the scenes from that film for training techniques some of the actors were using in the shootouts. You can’t get more real than that. ‘Heat’ is definitely rated about where it should be.


If it’s not your cup of tea, fair enough. But there’s a ton about that film that pushes the boundaries of heist films. And that’s before even getting into the superb casting and actual performances.

Yeah, it's just my opinion, and I did state parts of it were very realistic.

 

[Bullitt68]

I was asking about the listing because everything I can find suggests that he composed the soundtrack, but Rossini at least deserves credit for a small part of that. He did not compose that, which has me wondering what else in the film he did not compose.

Oh, the Rossini piece is when they're switching the babies. That's the same piece that Kubrick used in A Clockwork Orange. Leone absolutely used other music in the film besides Morricone's score. He's got Porter and Gershwin in there and even the fucking Beatles. Morricone's score is the heart and soul of the film, but other songs pop up here and there for tone, period setting, what have you.

And gosh, you really don't like Platoon? Why?

It's just a shitty movie. @HHJ knows how overrated I think Apocalypse Now is, well Platoon is a worse wannabe Apocalypse Now. Charlie's character is worse than Martin's character, Berenger's character is a cartoonishly over-the-top villain, Dafoe's character is the silliest character to ever exist in a war movie plus he played it like he was gay and had the hots for Charlie's character yet I doubt that was intentional, the voice-overs are hilariously pretentious drivel that makes Terrence Malick's insufferable The Thin Red Line seem like poetry of the highest order, the supporting cast is full of the cheesiest stereotypes ever and they're played so goofily by the likes of Kevin Dillon and John C. McGinley, and it has the lamest battle scenes of any Vietnam movie. Just crap all around. If only Kubrick had worked a little faster, Full Metal Jacket's reputation would be even greater and Platoon's would be way lower, closer to what it deserves alongside forgettable shit like Hamburger Hill and Casualties of War.

Okay, @Bullitt68 I have a question that you you might know in particular; is the Rossini being used because they are past the intellectual property window? Despite that, whatever orchestra performed should get a mention...

Guess I will finish the last 20 and watch the credits...

Or Leone might've just liked the piece. I'd also love to imagine Leone tipping his hat back to Kubrick, who famously after seeing Once Upon a Time in the West wrote a fan letter to Leone asking how he scores his movies so incredibly. Leone was the biggest influence on Kubrick's use of music, and the first thing he did after that Once Upon a Time in the West revelation was A Clockwork Orange, which is where Kubrick used that piece that Leone uses. Who knows?

Good shit. Mostly agree.

Had no idea about James Hayden and had to look it up. Holy shit!

Yep, maybe not quite the Len Bias of Hollywood but he had his whole life and career ahead of him, he was lighting up the stage (he'd just acted alongside Pacino) and getting bigger and bigger roles in bigger and bigger movies. He was poised to be one of the big '80s breakout stars. Damn shame.

 

[Roids]

I guess maybe I am a bit of an action hater but just when it's action for action's sake. A lot of the movie is realistic, like the Val Kilmer shootout scene, but things like the armored truck being breached were a little over the top for me.

You are nit picking if that thought even entered your mind about the armoured car. I'm picky myself but there was no issue with suspension of disbelief with that. People hating on Platoon as well? Sheesh. Its a masterpiece. So is the Thin Red line but they are completely different movies.

As for once upon a time in america, I remember noodles being a pretty lame character along with his nickname. which I found really annoying.

 

[Bullitt68]

You are nit picking [...] I remember noodles being a pretty lame character along with his nickname. which I found really annoying.

I love the name Noodles, not least because I was able in middle school to do some sort of show-and-tell presentation that required a material component on the film and the character Noodles for which I brought in a Tupperware of noodles. I barely remember that presentation, I just remember doing it and then eating a Tupperware of noodles with a friend in the class