Movies Once Upon a Time in America (4hr 11min cut)

[Possum Jenkins]

I'm in the underrated camp, to the point where this isn't just the GOAT mafia/crime film, it's simply one of the GOAT films. Better than both the Godfathers by a lot, better than Goodfellas and Casino, even better than Heat (but not by much). It's such a complete film, by which I mean you really feel like you've followed these characters through their entire lives. And you're right, Jesus X, they're downright pieces of shit, vicious thugs, and that's not only a refreshing change of pace (they're not good kids just taking over the "family" business like in The Godfather, and they're not super charming or living fantasy-type lifestyles like Scorsese stuff) but it's all the more impressive that Leone still hits you in the feels with their friendship and with what they experience/endure, especially De Niro's Noodles. And then there's the gorgeous cinematography, the ingenious editing, and the GOAT film score. It's a masterpiece and even calling it that seems to underrate it in my book.

It's definitely an amazing story and the back-and-forth with their childhood is brilliant. The raw reality of criminal life is also incredible.

For me, the only thing that keeps it just a notch below the other mob greats is the lack of charisma and likability from the characters as adults. Noodles is the one you're most sympathetic towards but even he's not too likable. Never mind James Woods' character. It's a little TOO brutal and cold, imo.

 

[Bullitt68]

It's definitely an amazing story and the back-and-forth with their childhood is brilliant. The raw reality of criminal life is also incredible.

For me, the only thing that keeps it just a notch below the other mob greats is the lack of charisma and likability from the characters as adults. Noodles is the one you're most sympathetic towards but even he's not too likable. Never mind James Woods' character. It's a little TOO brutal and cold, imo.

The likability thing is whatever - I can see it hindering enjoyment for some people, but it doesn't for me - but I'd push back on the "lack of charisma" part. De Niro is De Niro, James Woods is incredibly dynamic and Max is extremely charismatic, and James Hayden ("Kids' stuff"), who was supposed to rule the '80s along with Mickey Rourke but died of a heroin overdose at 29 (and Rourke dedicated The Pope of Greenwich Village to his fallen friend), is great as Patsy, the not-quite-psycho who could flip the psycho switch when it was go time. I also love William Forsythe in everything, so even though his character is the thinnest among the adult criminals, I also love him in it (I also always chuckle when he's busting De Niro's balls after he goes to the opium den following his disastrous "date" with Deborah).

For sure, the characters as people aren't "likable," but I nevertheless like watching their shenanigans. They're extremely compelling characters and their arc is an emotional rollercoaster expertly handled by Leone.

 

[HHJ]

 

[volodya]

The likability thing is whatever - I can see it hindering enjoyment for some people, but it doesn't for me - but I'd push back on the "lack of charisma" part. De Niro is De Niro, James Woods is incredibly dynamic and Max is extremely charismatic, and James Hayden ("Kids' stuff"), who was supposed to rule the '80s along with Mickey Rourke but died of a heroin overdose at 29 (and Rourke dedicated The Pope of Greenwich Village to his fallen friend), is great as Patsy, the not-quite-psycho who could flip the psycho switch when it was go time. I also love William Forsythe in everything, so even though his character is the thinnest among the adult criminals, I also love him in it (I also always chuckle when he's busting De Niro's balls after he goes to the opium den following his disastrous "date" with Deborah).

For sure, the characters as people aren't "likable," but I nevertheless like watching their shenanigans. They're extremely compelling characters and their arc is an emotional rollercoaster expertly handled by Leone.

Interesting what you said about the score being written first in your other post.

Love this scene, the music sets it perfectly...I mean so does the location which has gotta be right there in Dumbo...

 

[Bullitt68]

Interesting what you said about the score being written first in your other post.

Love this scene, the music sets it perfectly...I mean so does the location which has gotta be right there in Dumbo...

Yep. It's no accident that so many great filmmakers have collaborated with great composers - Hitchcock with Bernard Herrmann, Fellini with Nino Rota, Spielberg with John Williams, Burton with Danny Elfman, Nolan with Hans Zimmer - but the Leone/Morricone collaboration is right up there near the top. And Once Upon a Time in the West and Once Upon a Time in America are each man working at the height of their powers, with the combination of their talents resulting in sublime audiovisuals. In the former, the different "theme songs" for each character are all individually amazing but more specifically utilized so brilliantly by Leone, and in the latter, the pieces are just so evocative, they can be sweet and whimsical, heavy and somber, epic and sweeping. It's the stuff of genius.

And yes, that scene is incredible. The shift in tone, from something so sweet and fun to something so heartbreaking and life-changing, is extraordinary. But the image of their little friend group mascot tapdancing through the streets, the pure joy of childhood, it's magical. And a brilliant device to have the characters whistling or playing the film's music within the storyworld, another perk to already having the music ready before even starting to shoot.

No shortage of incredible stuff to commend in this movie.

 

[volodya]

Yep. It's no accident that so many great filmmakers have collaborated with great composers - Hitchcock with Bernard Herrmann, Fellini with Nino Rota, Spielberg with John Williams, Burton with Danny Elfman, Nolan with Hans Zimmer - but the Leone/Morricone collaboration is right up there near the top. And Once Upon a Time in the West and Once Upon a Time in America are each man working at the height of their powers, with the combination of their talents resulting in sublime audiovisuals. In the former, the different "theme songs" for each character are all individually amazing but more specifically utilized so brilliantly by Leone, and in the latter, the pieces are just so evocative, they can be sweet and whimsical, heavy and somber, epic and sweeping. It's the stuff of genius.

And yes, that scene is incredible. The shift in tone, from something so sweet and fun to something so heartbreaking and life-changing, is extraordinary. But the image of their little friend group mascot tapdancing through the streets, the pure joy of childhood, it's magical. And a brilliant device to have the characters whistling or playing the film's music within the storyworld, another perk to already having the music ready before even starting to shoot.

No shortage of incredible stuff to commend in this movie.

Maaaannnn...I've always thought the prevailing tune in this movie sounds sorta familiar. I just realized it is damn similar to the stuff from the ballroom scene in The Shining.

 

[Bullitt68]

Maaaannnn...I've always thought the prevailing tune in this movie sounds sorta familiar. I just realized it is damn similar to the stuff from the ballroom scene in The Shining.

That never occurred to me, but it makes sense since they're kids in Once Upon a Time in America in the late 1910s/early 1920s and that picture of Jack at the July 4th party is dated 1921. Morricone hit the right notes for that period music, pun intended.

 

[volodya]

That never occurred to me, but it makes sense since they're kids in Once Upon a Time in America in the late 1910s/early 1920s and that picture of Jack at the July 4th party is dated 1921. Morricone hit the right notes for that period music, pun intended.

I wonder if maybe he is giving props. I found a reddit thread (which automatically means its tru) that Morricone regretted not doing the scores for A Clockwork Orange and The Shining, which he was offered the job for.

 

[Bullitt68]

I wonder if maybe he is giving props. I found a reddit thread (which automatically means its tru) that Morricone regretted not doing the scores for A Clockwork Orange and The Shining, which he was offered the job for.

No, things don't line up that way. Leone spent a lot of years working on Once Upon a Time in America and Morricone's part composing the music was complete by the late '70s, whereas The Shining wasn't released until 1980.

 

[Highway99]

Just a short little video I found:

 

[volodya]

No, things don't line up that way. Leone spent a lot of years working on Once Upon a Time in America and Morricone's part composing the music was complete by the late '70s, whereas The Shining wasn't released until 1980.

Ahhh, good point. What other directors of note has he hooked up with?

 

[volodya]

Just a short little video I found:

Thats cool! Shows just how much you can do with one theme. That reminds me of the start of the 18th variation of Rachmoninoff's Paganini Rhapsody

 

[Bullitt68]

Ahhh, good point. What other directors of note has he hooked up with?

Morricone? A bunch. In Italy, in addition to Leone, he also scored movies for Dario Argento and Bernardo Bertolucci, and in Hollywood, he's provided music for Terrence Malick, John Carpenter, and Brian De Palma. Tarantino also used a lot of the stuff he did for The Thing that Carpenter didn't use, and that won him his first and only Oscar.

 

[Highway99]

Ahhh, good point. What other directors of note has he hooked up with?

Browse his IMBD....he has 500+ credits to his name. He's worked with the other Sergio..Corbucci, Mallick, Argento, Bertolucci, Lenzi....

I'm obsessed with this version of Gabriel's Oboe from the film The Mission:



Also I love the song Chi Mai from The Professional. The film's star Jean-Paul Belmondo was laid to rest while this song played:

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Has anyone the cut with 20 minutes of added footage from 2012? Love this movie, but have never seen this version. I hesitate to watch it online but I found it here for anyone interested:

I have this on blu ray and I enjoyed it. There should be a few versions, I haven't watched them all, but I believe the shortest length one was cut by the studio, so that's one to skip.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

The director said one time that someone who was a huge fan of his told him "Master! you MUST tell me what the ending means! Wait! dont tell me!" and walked off. Like the mystery of it was was better for him, wondering what it really meant

That reminds me of the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. I'm pretty sure Tarantino had something in mind when he wrote it but now refuses to talk about it and let viewers use their own imagination.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I wish they found the lost Cannes cut. Or better yet the version that was 2 3 hour movies..

I recently got Christopher Frayling's most recent Leone book, can't wait till I get to the part about this movie.

I think the 229 minute version is the Cannes cut.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I'm fuzzy on the history now (and lazily watching The X-Files and don't want to Google) but I don't think there were that many different actual cuts. Leone had different ideas, including two connected but separate 3-hour epics, but I think it was just this super long one, then the 229-minute one, then the chopped up garbage one. What is the Cannes cut if not this 251-minute version? And I don't think he ever actually had or cut together 6 coherent hours; I think that was just an idea he had along the way. Could be wrong, though...



...and please correct me if I am





I'm in the underrated camp, to the point where this isn't just the GOAT mafia/crime film, it's simply one of the GOAT films. Better than both the Godfathers by a lot, better than Goodfellas and Casino, even better than Heat (but not by much). It's such a complete film, by which I mean you really feel like you've followed these characters through their entire lives. And you're right, Jesus X, they're downright pieces of shit, vicious thugs, and that's not only a refreshing change of pace (they're not good kids just taking over the "family" business like in The Godfather, and they're not super charming or living fantasy-type lifestyles like Scorsese stuff) but it's all the more impressive that Leone still hits you in the feels with their friendship and with what they experience/endure, especially De Niro's Noodles. And then there's the gorgeous cinematography, the ingenious editing, and the GOAT film score. It's a masterpiece and even calling it that seems to underrate it in my book.

The Cannes cut is the one you prefer. I also think it's a great movie but rate it behind Goodfellas and the first two Godfather movies. I watched the extended director's and thought it was great so not really interested in watching a shorter version to compare. The movie didn't feel too long to me and I prefer to get the whole story and character development.

 

[volodya]

Uh oh fellas, this is quickly evolving into a greast film score conversation.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Oh stuck around, my good bud @Bullitt68 has some profound film opinions.


We need @Madmick in here to really get this going.


Personally I’m only lukewarm on this film and I definitely don’t find it to be better than The Godfather 1 and 2, nor Heat, Goodfellas, Casino and a few others in the genre

IMO Heat is the movie that's overrated. I'm not really into superfluous action scenes and suspension of disbelief.