International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[Jack V Savage]

Off the rails? By saying we can, in fact, have nice things that poll well and that are standard in other countries? Chill dude.

Also, if you ever wonder why I stop engaging with Jack that post you responded to is a picture perfect example. No basis in reality. I've never said nor implied that and you've even liked my posts where I've said things clearly opposing that view.

That's why I fuck off with certain posters.

What are you talking about? You don’t engage because you're out of your depth when a discussion is about specifics instead of just name-calling people who disagree with you.

 

[deviake]

@Islam Imamate

Do you vote democrat or republican and and how do you feel about unions?

 

[deviake]

What are you talking about? You don’t engage because you're out of your depth when a discussion is about specifics instead of just name-calling people who disagree with you.

You have better jukes and sidesteps than an NFL running back. Ain't the first time you've been called out either, and that critique is bipartisan

 

[Jack V Savage]

You have better jukes and sidesteps than an NFL running back. Ain't the first time you've been called out either, and that critique is bipartisan

Again, what are you talking about? Lots of shitty posters here who think mysterious personal insults should be substituted for honest discussion. As you say, my critique of you is bipartisan.

 

[filthybliss]

Off the rails? By saying we can, in fact, have nice things that poll well and that are standard in other countries? Chill dude.

No, I didn't say that. You are off the rails because you are liking kooky comments, muttering about MSNBC and Nancy Pelosi, and institutions being all corporatized to ruin the working class. It’s all very strange and black/white.

Also, if you ever wonder why I stop engaging with Jack that post you responded to is a picture perfect example. No basis in reality. I've never said nor implied that and you've even liked my posts where I've said things clearly opposing that view.

That's why I fuck off with certain posters.

I mean you called him a republican. I don't like what he said about you either....I feel like an "enlightened" centrist in these exchanges...I wish yall could be cordial

 

[Islam Imamate]

@Islam Imamate

Do you vote democrat or republican and and how do you feel about unions?

National level I generally vote Democrat but I'm not in favor of unions. I vote Democrat because they work to expand the social safety net and are in favor of immigration.

 

[Jack V Savage]

No, I didn't say that. You are off the rails because you are liking kooky comments, muttering about MSNBC and Nancy Pelosi, and institutions being all corporatized to ruin the working class. It’s all very strange and black/white.

I mean you called him a republican. I don't like what he said about you either....I feel like an "enlightened" centrist in these exchanges...I wish yall could be cordial

I was responding cordially to him, explaining stuff I think he might not have been aware of. And he responds by accusing me of lying and strawmanning my argument. I still responded civilly to that and tried to calm him down enough to think. And then in response to another strawman, I just corrected him (the "whackjob" thing was his own term--I just said my impression wasn’t formed by what he said it was formed by but rather by him acting as if Republicans don't exist or have any power in gov't). I really don't know how I can be more fair to or patient with him. He just cannot handle disagreement or discuss things like an adult.

 

[filthybliss]

@Islam Imamate

Do you vote democrat or republican and and how do you feel about unions?

I’d be shocked if he voted Republican tbh.

Post-9/11, most “brown” people or atleast Indians in my experience understood that the GOP practically abhorred you.

My grandma’s Hindu fanatic brother even understood this. He started plastering American flags everywhere after 9/11 to show that he was “one of the good” ones. Despite understanding that, he still supports Trump out of spite towards Muslims. The GOP framework fucks him over too because he has been running a small laundromat since the 80s iirc and he will likely need to work till the day that he dies….

I used to think that my dad got into all that “New Atheist” stuff because my mom wasn’t religious nor from the same background. But his siblings practically abandoned religion too beyond some cultural stuff like Diwali, Holi, etc.

Now, I think seeing their uncle’s kookiness scared them away which is fine IMO because I love beef too much and Balvihar sucked when my grandpa tried to get me into it lol

 

[Sinister]

National level I generally vote Democrat but I'm not in favor of unions. I vote Democrat because they work to expand the social safety net and are in favor of immigration.

So you like for capitalists to have all the leverage when it comes to employment conditions?

 

[Islam Imamate]

So you like for capitalists to have all the leverage when it comes to employment conditions?

I prefer to let the market sort it out in tandem with cash transfers like Social Security, unemployment benefits, and the expanded child tax credit. Unions create bad incentives and hurt dynamism imo.

 

[Sinister]

I prefer to let the market sort it out in tandem with cash transfers like Social Security, unemployment benefits, and the expanded child tax credit. Unions create bad incentives and hurt dynamism imo.

Depending on social safety nets to give people the financial security to quit sh*tty jobs is the opposite of "letting the market sort it out." I dont know why youd think Unions hurt dynamism, the US has been much more productive when Unions were stronger.

"There is a common myth that unions hurt productivity, supposedly because they impose work rules that make their employers less efficient. The evidence from industrial relations studies does not support this myth. A broad study of the economics literature found “a positive association [of unions on productivity] is established for the United States in general and for U.S. manufacturing” in particular (Doucouliagos and Laroche 2003, 1).1 And as the second chart below reveals, international comparisons suggest that high productivity and very high union density are entirely compatible."

Strong unions, strong productivity

See Snapshots archive. Snapshot for June 20, 2007. Strong unions, strong productivity by Ross Eisenbrey Unionization in the United States has declined since the late 1970s, when 27% of U.S. workers were covered by union contracts, to today, when only about 12% are covered. This has had...

www.epi.org

 

[Islam Imamate]

Depending on social safety nets to give people the financial security to quit sh*tty jobs is the opposite of "letting the market sort it out." I dont know why youd think Unions hurt dynamism, the US has been much more productive when Unions were stronger.

"There is a common myth that unions hurt productivity, supposedly because they impose work rules that make their employers less efficient. The evidence from industrial relations studies does not support this myth. A broad study of the economics literature found “a positive association [of unions on productivity] is established for the United States in general and for U.S. manufacturing” in particular (Doucouliagos and Laroche 2003, 1).1 And as the second chart below reveals, international comparisons suggest that high productivity and very high union density are entirely compatible."

Strong unions, strong productivity

See Snapshots archive. Snapshot for June 20, 2007. Strong unions, strong productivity by Ross Eisenbrey Unionization in the United States has declined since the late 1970s, when 27% of U.S. workers were covered by union contracts, to today, when only about 12% are covered. This has had...

www.epi.org

I think it's better to let the market sort out the relations of production and then use redistribution via cash transfers to give vulnerable people financial security instead of favoring unions.

 

[deviake]

No, I didn't say that. You are off the rails because you are liking comments, muttering about MSNBC and Nancy Pelosi, and institutions being all corporatized to ruin the working class. Its all very strange and black/white.

I mean you called him a republican. I don't like what he said about you either....I feel like an "enlightened" centrist in these exchanges...I wish yall could be cordial

I'll walk you through this, chew it up and regurgitate to you like a father feeding baby birds.

There were people on MSNBC, liberals (and there's been Democrat politicians as well), throwing trans people and black and latino men under the bus. I won't stand for that. What I commented on happened, it's not an opinion, and it's pretty universally agreed upon that corporate media sucks outside of diehard liberals and conservatives (Edit: Not that all "independent media" is good and not that I never get news from corporate media). Nancy Pelosi and other members of the house are very likely insider trading. She's been openly against measures to curb that. Wonder why. Corruption isn't okay because there's a D after the name. If a Democrat says Republican talking points, I don't put my fingers in my ears like a child and close my eyes and me commenting on the Democrats doesn't mean I'm going the Jimmy Dore route, the Republicans are worse as I've said many times. Additionally, you're bringing up shit I said weeks and months ago some of which I think was in other threads and has no bearing on the points I'm making meow and that is annoying because I don't live to argue on the internet believe it or not. You guys keep throwing shit into different yards, I'm not going after all the chum, I'm not that interested in arguing. Stick to the fucking issue. I ain't responding to 4600 quotes.

I never called him a Republican. You're being straight up dishonest or disingenuous and while I often don't pull receipts because I ain't wasting time digging, this one is easy:

They've no power so no, I don't care about them.

I'm (and apparently whole countries?) a wackjob for saying every other country has healthcare and several have better public programs.

Brilliant

-this message brought to you by the republican party

Obviously a cheeky comment but as I've said many times, a lot of ya'll liberals repeat conservative talking points and when it comes to criticisms of your party, ya'll act like a lot of the conservative posters on this site. Interesting in your case cuz you agreed with me a lot in that other Bernie thread along with Sinister and we had plenty of smoke for the Democratic Party and Jack but meow you're screaming bloody murder like I'm this loose cannon saying nonsense and losing my mind. To quote GSP: "Fack off men."

You're a wackjob for believing that Republicans have no impact on policy.

^
See this Filthy? This is an objectively false and dishonest statement not to mention a non sequitur and you have seen me criticize the Republicans and list good things the Democrats have done so you know for a fact this isn't true. This is arguing in bad faith and why I start ignoring Jack's posts and no, I won't be cordial with flagrant dishonesty. He uses a style of arguing that guys like Shapiro and Chowder use and another conservative I got in heated arguments with on here back in the day. Throw enough out there to exhaust the other person or make them keep having to put out brush fires. When someone is arguing in good faith their points are generally coherent and fairly simple to understand, they don't resort to weird non sequiturs, dishonesty, and constantly bringing up tangential things to obfuscate and get the conservation off course.

So, you know better. I'm starting to question your integrity. You give Jack every charity in the world and act like I'm crazy. Fuck off with that disingenuous, gaslighting bullshit.

Money in politics is a thing. It's not an opinion.

That every other first world nation on the earth has some form of UHC is not an opinion.

That other countries have better infrastructure and public programs is not an opinion.

The increasing upward transfer of wealth is not an opinion.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Depending on social safety nets to give people the financial security to quit sh*tty jobs is the opposite of "letting the market sort it out." I dont know why youd think Unions hurt dynamism, the US has been much more productive when Unions were stronger.

Correction here. U.S. productivity has never been higher than it is now. It’s up like 13% just since 2017, and more than quadruple what it was in 1954.

But agreed with your broader point that high union membership is compatible with strong productivity growth. Depends on the specifics of what the unions do.

 

[deviake]

I’d be shocked if he voted Republican tbh.

Post-9/11, most “brown” people or atleast Indians in my experience understood that the GOP practically abhorred you.

My grandma’s Hindu fanatic brother even understood this. He started plastering American flags everywhere after 9/11 to show that he was “one of the good” ones. Despite understanding that, he still supports Trump out of spite towards Muslims. The GOP framework fucks him over too because he has been running a small laundromat since the 80s iirc and he will likely need to work till the day that he dies….

I used to think that my dad got into all that “New Atheist” stuff because my mom wasn’t religious nor from the same background. But his siblings practically abandoned religion too beyond some cultural stuff like Diwali, Holi, etc.

Now, I think seeing their uncle’s kookiness scared them away which is fine IMO because I love beef too much and Balvihar sucked when my grandpa tried to get me into it lol

National level I generally vote Democrat but I'm not in favor of unions. I vote Democrat because they work to expand the social safety net and are in favor of immigration.

This suggests he votes Republican to some degree and him and Jack, from what I've seen, have a strong overlap on political opinions and Jack's like of one of his posts on this page suggests he's also not keen on unions. Meow, Filthy, Jack is a died in the wool liberal. What point have been making again?



That's fine, I'm not gonna try to change views like that, but, I'm just saiyan. Also, from what I know of them they're both upper middle class.

Yeah, there was a lot of racism post 9/11, fucking gross. I remember at an old job I worked at in the 2010s a middle eastern truck driver came through and said he was from, "The axis of evil" lol, good sense of humor at least.

 

[Jack V Savage]

What I commented on happened, it's not an opinion, and it's pretty universally agreed upon that corporate media sucks outside of diehard liberals and conservatives.

This is very illustrative of the sick mindset that I've described. You think your opinion is universally agreed-upon (and thus needs no argument other than insults) *except by the majority of the public*! My dude, we can disagree about everything else and be fine, but if you can’t accept that people who aren't in your tribe are people too, it’s impossible to respect you.

And that attitude is why you're OK with making horrible and false accusations against anyone outside your tiny tribe.

^
See this Filthy? This is an objectively false and dishonest statement not to mention a non sequitur and you have seen me criticize the Republicans and list good things the Democrats have done so you know for a fact this isn't true.

That was, in fact, my criticism. You claimed that I was criticizing you for saying that other countries had better public services. You were lying, and I corrected you.

This is arguing in bad faith and why I start ignoring Jack's posts and no, I won't be cordial with flagrant dishonesty.

I was correcting your lie about my position.

The rest of that unhinged rant is just projection. I don’t think it's asking too much for you to just not lie about what I think.

 

[deviake]

This is very illustrative of the sick mindset that I've described. You think your opinion is universally agreed-upon (and thus needs no argument other than insults) *except by the majority of the public*! My dude, we can disagree about everything else and be fine, but if you can’t accept that people who aren't in your tribe are people too, it’s impossible to respect you.

And that attitude is why you're OK with making horrible and false accusations against anyone outside your tiny tribe.

That was, in fact, my criticism. You claimed that I was criticizing you for saying that other countries had better public services. You were lying, and I corrected you.

I was correcting your lie about my position.

The rest of that unhinged rant is just projection. I don’t think it's asking too much for you to just not lie about what I think.

"Sick mindset" lmao.

I did see those comments on MSNBC, that's not an opinion, it happened. You're the tribal one here. What were you saying about projection?

You twist words like a speech impediment my dude. @Sinister called you out for sidestepping earlier in this thread too, so have many others over the years. It's a pattern.

You're a wackjob for believing that Republicans have no impact on policy.

This is a lie and non sequitur. You know this too @Islam Imamate

 

[Jack V Savage]

"Sick mindset" lmao.

Dehumanizing the majority of the public that disagrees with you. It’s unhealthy for you and very unpleasant for anyone who has to deal with you.

I did see those comments on MSNBC, that's not an opinion, it happened. You're the tribal one here. What were you saying about projection?

Don't know what you're talking about here. The projection is that you're arguing in bad faith (pretending that I disagree that single payer exists or something when I made my views very clear).

You twist words like a speech impediment my dude.

Where? You keep making these accusations but you never even attempt to substantiate them.

@Sinister called you out for sidestepping earlier in this thread too, so have many others over the years. It's a pattern.

Again, that has never happened. Stop lying, for God's sake. Just address real arguments.

This is a lie and non sequitur. You know this too @Islam Imamate

What are you claiming is a lie? Do you think that Republican politicians support single payer? Can you cite any evidence for that?

 

[Sinister]

Correction here. U.S. productivity has never been higher than it is now. It’s up like 13% just since 2017, and more than quadruple what it was in 1954.

But agreed with your broader point that high union membership is compatible with strong productivity growth. Depends on the specifics of what the unions do.

Biden's NLRB has done more to strengthen Unions than any President for 50 years. Not a coincidence.

The Firefighter's Union are already denouncing their advocacy of Trump.

 

[deviake]

You twist words like a speech impediment my dude. @Sinister called you out for sidestepping earlier in this thread too, so have many others over the years. It's a pattern.

Again, that has never happened. Stop lying, for God's sake. Just address real arguments.

@filthybliss

Take note of this exchange. Meow, Jack just said I'm lying that Sinister called him out for "sidestepping" "earlier in this thread".

Why is issue polling worthless? Right now ballot initiatives are some of the only potent ways to curtail State authoritarianism

I explained why. People are so ignorant about the basic operations of gov't they can't form meaningful opinions.

That's the exact reason FOR issue polling. It's not asking them about the Government, it asks them if they would like a thing or not.

Policy is about tradeoffs. People want all good things.

Nice side-step. Policy is only about tradeoffs when there are conflicting interests, and when specific ones have more influence over the levers of power. I mean it's not surprising that in a thread addressing some of the woes of capitalism, youd dismiss what the constituency wants to a certain degree because you KNOW there are interests who are going to go "what's in it for me?"

Enlarged for emphasis.

If you want I can give you the page number I quoted this from, I forgot to do that when quoting lol.

Whoops Jack, did you think I was gonna be too lazy to pull yet another receipt of your deceit in my own thread?



This is what I'm talking about, it's all here for everyone to see.