Ok. Am I being a b**tch in this situation...

[Bubble Boy]

That's as far as I need to read, cause that's the friggin' truth. Your pin wasn't doing shit, and he was in fact "safe". He was going to escape once you went for something actually dangerous (because it's very rare on an even moderate level for people to tap to "discomfort"). Obviously, since you going for something resulted in him taking your back and choking you out, you are NOT equal. You are a decent Judoka with good pin skills, but he is a superior ground player.

Still, I wouldn't call you a bitch... Unless you were starting from the knees or (worse) some kind of dominant position, and you got to this pin and just refused to move. You were wasting his time and yours, just playing blanket. Yeah, maybe he should have "been working to escape", but if "after several minutes" he was just going to tap so you'd move on to something else, he was in no danger. You weren't accomplishing anything, or he'd have just TAPPED, not talked about tapping. You went for something, he escaped and tapped you. Obviously, you have good pins, why would he waste energy fighting to escape the pin if he was in no danger. You had to make space ot put him in danger, and then he escapes and beats you.

The pin in Judo is a demonstration of control over your opponent, which is viewed as being equal to submitting him, as if you can control an opponent for half a minute, you can kill him in less. Unfortunately, the sport setting has changed the mindset to "if I can hold him down, I win, I don't have to be able to acutally maintain control and finish him". In a one on one setting, if I am attacking you, and you take me down and pin me, you can hold me all day and hope for the police to arrive, but if you can only pin me, you won't win, because eventually we have to get up, and I will continue attempting to kill you. Pinning is a symbolic victory... If you can hurt someone with it, then you could make them tap (it can happen), but you weren't hurting him. You were just hugging him.

I have quite a bit of Judo experience myself, and even in Judo I hated it when folks just held pins... Most Judo schools don't spend nearly enough time on ne waza as it is, and there's guys that won't just get a pin then say "okay, I got him, moving on", they'll sit in it for the duration fo the ground time, leaving you to tap just to move on, or waste your whole ne waza time. Yes, you need experience escaping pins in Judo, and there are limited options open to you, so it IS a legitimate exercise there, but not past 25 seconds, as you're not proving anything now.

In BJJ, SW, or even self defense training, a pin is WORTHLESS if you're incapable of capitalizing on your control of the position. What you are doing is simply stalling, avoiding your friends superior submission game. You established position, held him own... but you wanted to stay there for the next several minutes. Looking at the possible applications of that, let's see:

Self Defense: You are attacked, take your opponent down and immobilize him, planning to hold him there until he wears himself out or falls asleep, or surrenders so he can go mug someone else. Meanwhile, you lie there wide open to his friends, other thugs, getting trampled in a bar fight situation, and if he isn't thrashing around like a moron wearing himself out, you are doing nothing but delaying his attack.

BJJ: You got your points for position, and if he doesn't have any, then you can just hold on for the win. However, since the pin is your only weapon, if you move at all in the course of the match (since you can't simply win with the pin), it's likely he will escape and sub you. Heaven forbid you got the pin at the beginning of the match... All the spectators, judges, and competitors are hoping the suspense kills you.

Sub Wrestling: See BJJ

MMA: You will be stood up, and he wills tart hitting you. Again. And then you will take him down and hold him again. Repeat. Insert yellow cards.




Now, since it seems like I'm chewing you out, and I'm not, I'll give you a f'rinstance:

You ever roll with a guy in ne waza that has a good turtle, and that's all he goes for? You wind up stalemated, because you can't, within the confines of Judo rules, open his turtle or sub him, and at the same time you get no experience defending anything, as he's not going for anything. You ever face "that guy", and just think "Jesus... I should just lie down and invite him to attack me", because it feels like you've wasted what little ne waza time you got?

Also, when I rolled with wrestlers in Judo, and now when I roll with Judoka or wrestlers, I'd let them take dominant position, and look to get out. Obviously, sometimes I couldn't. In those situations, sometimes I'd stop fighting and wait for them to go for something. A lot of times, they wouldn't, because they didn't know anything, or knew I'd get out.

The whole point of pin escapes in BJJ revolves around moving when the guy moves. In Judo, it's on getting certain things going to get out or reverse it. The problem is, if you get a pin locked in, you probably won't escape (otherwise, no one would win by pin). If you can't get out, and there's only a 5 minutes roll going, and the guy is gonna hold it for 5 minutes, then 5 minutes of your class have been wasted. Or at least 4 1/2.

I usually edit qoutes this long just to get to the main point, but this is a damn good post Stephensharp...you fucker.

I'm also the turtle guy you described btw.

*Dawns on Bubble Boy that maybe he is a grappling beeeooo-tch*

 

[thecas]

I have always wondered too the value of certain pins. In a Street fight, if you do NS can the bottom guy bite your belly? Or when u r in side control you note how close his hands r to ya crotch.

In other neutral situations however, other pins does give a slight edge. The holder can move as he deems fit. To cut it short, he has the choice of first move advantage.

 

[stephensharp]

ps- A sub you could have done with little or no change of position is an old Jeff Monson favorite... If you have the head and arm, with the hands together, start to sink your hips and wriggle enough to get your bicep under the guy's chin. Once it's there, settle your chest off the side of his head, between the head and the trapped arm. You just stretch yourself out away from him, and you're choking him, cranking his neck, and generally ruining his day.

I think someone here has an av of the move in a MMA match.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Pins have their place in SD. If your buddy gets drunk and picks a fight, there's no need to break an arm. Someones in a party acting up and you know you have numbers, you can hold him til your boys come and help drag them out. You catch a criminal in public and don't want to rick an accident strangling him and someones' already called the cops, you can hold them til the cops come. So pins do have a place in martial arts. However, once you've made your point, you need to get on with the game, especially if you're not playing wrestling or judo. Either keep going or reset. SOMETHING.

 

[Truculent]

I'm sorry but we're in a new age of Jiu Jitsu, the whole stalling, holding thing is really just a nuisance. Why the hell are we locking up? Jiu jitsu is about fliudity. I still see people holding eachother down or clamping behind someone's back and just holding them there in guard.

Alright its great you got the pin in the north south, but do something with it. I mean if he knows you've got him pinned hes not gonna burn energy trying to fight out if he feels no threat.

 

[Steeltwo]

I have always wondered too the value of certain pins. In a Street fight, if you do NS can the bottom guy bite your belly? Or when u r in side control you note how close his hands r to ya crotch.

In other neutral situations however, other pins does give a slight edge. The holder can move as he deems fit. To cut it short, he has the choice of first move advantage.

my judo instructor when asked how effective a n/s pin was on the streets showed us on a hardwood floor. If you keep your face up, you'll get your nose broken and probly drown in your own blood. If you turn your headsideways. It crushes your ears REALLY bad and you'll want to cry.


if you do not have both arms pinned, then a shot to the pills is REALLY easy.

 

[eljamaiquino]

Self Defense: You are attacked, take your opponent down and immobilize him, planning to hold him there until he wears himself out or falls asleep, or surrenders so he can go mug someone else. Meanwhile, you lie there wide open to his friends, other thugs, getting trampled in a bar fight situation, and if he isn't thrashing around like a moron wearing himself out, you are doing nothing but delaying his attack.

BJJ: You got your points for position, and if he doesn't have any, then you can just hold on for the win. However, since the pin is your only weapon, if you move at all in the course of the match (since you can't simply win with the pin), it's likely he will escape and sub you. Heaven forbid you got the pin at the beginning of the match... All the spectators, judges, and competitors are hoping the suspense kills you.

Sub Wrestling: See BJJ

MMA: You will be stood up, and he wills tart hitting you. Again. And then you will take him down and hold him again. Repeat. Insert yellow cards.


The whole point of pin escapes in BJJ revolves around moving when the guy moves. In Judo, it's on getting certain things going to get out or reverse it. The problem is, if you get a pin locked in, you probably won't escape (otherwise, no one would win by pin). If you can't get out, and there's only a 5 minutes roll going, and the guy is gonna hold it for 5 minutes, then 5 minutes of your class have been wasted. Or at least 4 1/2.

You're wrong on a few points. Self Defense situation: He cannot hurt me. Who's to say my friends aren't going to stomp him now since he's helpless. I can see his hands, search his pockets, stab him, whatever, and HE CAN'T SEE IT COMING because I'm covering his face. Its dangerous, but not any more so than any other ground technique. With that logic, most of BJJ is worthless. "why use a full armbar? You're just lying on the ground and his friends will stomp you!"..lol..Again, you're forgetting the knees as well..

BJJ: :lame way to win IMO, but you can win. You got points for position. If you took the takedown as well, you've won, within the existing rules. Cheap, but a win is a win. You won't learn anything other than how to hold a pin, but if you really want to win, who cares?

Sub wrestling: As i said , a real grappler will crush you with that pin. Just laying on top is for BJJ'ers and Judoka who don't know how to do it properly...

MMA: see the knees again. Look how Fedor and guys like Heath herring strike from these positions, and then tell me that the positions lame.

You're not seing the situation fully. You're viewing it through BJJ lenses. Position should come first, then technique IMO. You don't stop at psoition, but it should come first. Dominant position like the mount and North/South are dominant for a reason. In a complete situation, there is a very real danger from strikes. Knees and elbows and punches have more power going down than from below. Plus in North/South, you CAN'T SEE what I'm doing.....

think about that...


Now Bubbleboy, you really should learn some subs though. the point of this time with your friend should be to learn, not to beat him. You're lucky you have someone to roll with. Use this time to learn and try new stuff. You can pin, and its a dominant position,..great, but now learn some new subs and then you'll be doubly dangerous...

 

[stephensharp]

I usually edit qoutes this long just to get to the main point, but this is a damn good post Stephensharp...you fucker.

I'm also the turtle guy you described btw.

*Dawns on Bubble Boy that maybe he is a grappling beeeooo-tch*

You are NOT a grappling bitch... You are a Judo player with a solid defensive game. But don't pat yourself on the back for stalling out a match with a BJJ guy or something cause he couldn't crack your turtle or get out of your pin. You didnt' do anything more than you would hav ein his guard (unless you're really sweaty, or don't wash your gi often... Then, you may have given him the gift that keeps on giving!!).

I approached both sports as an amalgam, so, for my level in each, I'm like a ne waza wizard Judoka with mediocre stand up, or a mid-level BJJ guy with a good top game and takedowns, and a mediocre guard game.

My Judo losses were to an ouchi gari when I got flustered with a turtle and let a guy up I was beating (I had half a point on him, and was hoping I'd shut him down and get another chance to work him on the ground), and he suckered me, and a pin where the guy was too big for me to foil his throw, and he just sat on me in kesa. Both were higher belts out of my weight class, and I cleaned up my division in both those tourneys all with subs, usually after the guy scored part of a point with a throw that I partially defended, or we both crashed after I stuffed him.

In BJJ, I tend to get the takedown, get top position, then the guy weasels out the back of my kesa, because it just doesn't work the same.

I'm working primarily on my BJJ now, and have gotten rid of a lot of the "bad habits" from Judo, but there were plenty form when I took time off from BJJ I found myself doing in Judo. Different game plans.

 

[stephensharp]

You're wrong on a few points. Self Defense situation: He cannot hurt me. Who's to say my friends aren't going to stomp him now since he's helpless. I can see his hands, search his pockets, stab him, whatever, and HE CAN'T SEE IT COMING because I'm covering his face. Its dangerous, but not any more so than any other ground technique. Again, you're forgetting the knees as well..

BJJ: :lame way to win IMO, but you can win. You got points for position. If you took the takedown as well, you've won, within the existing rules. Cheap, but a win is a win. You won't learn anything other than how to hold a pin, but if you really want to win, who cares?

Sub wrestling: As i said , a real grappler will crush you with that pin. Just laying on top is for BJJ'ers and Judoka who don't know how to do it properly...

MMA: see the knees again. Look how Fedor and guys like Heath herring strike from these positions, and then tell me that the positions lame.

You're not seing the situation fully. You're viewing it through BJJ lenses. Position should come first, then technique IMO. You don't stop at psoition, but it should come first. Dominant position like the mount and North/South are dominant for a reason. In a complete situation, there is a very real danger from strikes. Knees and elbows and punches have more power going down than from below. Plus in North/South, you CAN'T SEE what I'm doing.....

think about that...

You've had one to many filthy gis ground into your face, and can't read properly anymore. The original poster was talking about putting someone in a pin, and holding them indefinetly. This will not end a fight. Holding a pin and throwing knees is not the same thing, as you have to break your base to throw the knees... If you only train to hold the pin, if you ever owound up in a situation where you had to strike, you better hope the guy is completely lost on the ground.

In the SD situation, you have to rely on others... and if you'r ewit a group of your friends, holding someone down for people to stomp on him, you're not defending yourself. You're gang raping someone.

I've won my fair share Judo tourneys and been doing Judo for quite some time, so I'm not viewing it through BJJ lenses... I'm viewing it realistically. You are not. You can say anythign you want about options out of that position, but if you don't train them (which Judo does not), you cannot honestly say "From North South, I can burst their liver with hammer fists... knee them in the face... this and that..." You can pin them. Period. UNtil you actually attempt to do these other things and trian them, which is NOT what this thread was about, it was about a guy holding the pin and squeezing, and then peopel were arguing the validity of this... There isn't any outside of sport Judo. If there was, his buddy would have tapped (it's possible, BB just wasn't putting enough "umph" into it, or his buddy is too use to his positioning). You have to do somethign else, and that requires moving, and when he moved, his buddy escaped and subbed him.

To throw knees from north south, you have to move up the body further, then lift some weight off him. To strike form ANY position, you have to make space. To submit as well. To pin, you take the space away.

We're talking pin vs. sub or strike, and pin should be the gateway to either. If you're rolling for self defense, MMA, or BJJ, you need to be looking to do something FROM the pin, which means making space. If you can't make space without them escaping, then you need more trianing. You can't get that if you jsut get the pin and hold on.

Now Bubbleboy, you really should learn some subs though. the point of this time with your friend should be to learn, not to beat him. You're lucky you have someone to roll with. Use this time to learn and try new stuff. You can pin, and its a dominant position,..great, but now learn some new subs and then you'll be doubly dangerous...

Glad you added that... But realize he's not dangerous yet. He doesn't train striking (so far as I know), so he can't just say "I could knee you from here", or he falls into the same bullshit category as all the anti-grapplers that say "I could rip your balls off/gouge your eyes/fuck you in the ass while you were trying to grapple me"... UNLESS you train all that, you are just talking out your ass.






I have a black belt in sinking the third hook.

 

[eljamaiquino]

You've had one to many filthy gis ground into your face, and can't read properly anymore. The original poster was talking about putting someone in a pin, and holding them indefinetly. This will not end a fight. Holding a pin and throwing knees is not the same thing, as you have to break your base to throw the knees... If you only train to hold the pin, if you ever owound up in a situation where you had to strike, you better hope the guy is completely lost on the ground.



Glad you added that... But realize he's not dangerous yet. He doesn't train striking (so far as I know), so he can't just say "I could knee you from here", or he falls into the same bullshit category as all the anti-grapplers that say "I could rip your balls off/gouge your eyes/fuck you in the ass while you were trying to grapple me"... UNLESS you train all that, you are just talking out your ass.


QUOTE]

Well, if you want to be technical, the original post was "Is this lame?". Most of us have said, if its for submission grappling, yes, it is, move to something else.
You just started on a tirade on how useless the position is in general. That's what this has become... No, it won't end a fight, not the way he's doing it, but its not a useless position, was all i was saying..

Thanks for the concern, but my optometrist says my vision is unchanged. :icon_conf

 

[stephensharp]

You've had one to many filthy gis ground into your face, and can't read properly anymore. The original poster was talking about putting someone in a pin, and holding them indefinetly. This will not end a fight. Holding a pin and throwing knees is not the same thing, as you have to break your base to throw the knees... If you only train to hold the pin, if you ever owound up in a situation where you had to strike, you better hope the guy is completely lost on the ground.



Glad you added that... But realize he's not dangerous yet. He doesn't train striking (so far as I know), so he can't just say "I could knee you from here", or he falls into the same bullshit category as all the anti-grapplers that say "I could rip your balls off/gouge your eyes/fuck you in the ass while you were trying to grapple me"... UNLESS you train all that, you are just talking out your ass.


QUOTE]

Well, if you want to be technical, the original post was "Is this lame?". Most of us have said, if its for submission grappling, yes, it is, move to something else.
You just started on a tirade on how useless the position is in general. That's what this has become... No, it won't end a fight, not the way he's doing it, but its not a useless position, was all i was saying..

Thanks for the concern, but my optometrist says my vision is unchanged. :icon_conf

No, you strawmanned me, and are now trying to defend that nonsense. I said that the position wouldn't end a fight, period.

Get out of here with that stuff, scarecrow.

 

[eljamaiquino]

No, you strawmanned me, and are now trying to defend that nonsense. I said that the position wouldn't end a fight, period.

Get out of here with that stuff, scarecrow.

Er..He's not in a fight. He's in a submission grappling thing between friends.
Since you brought it up....

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Bubbleboy: I laid on him and didn't move. Am i a bitch for this?
You then went on to "It won't end a fight", which wasn't what he asked in the first place!

You attacked the idea of it being useful or ending an attacker in a fight, which wasn't the point to begin with......

Peace..

 

[Bubble Boy]

Here's what I'm going to do from now on:

1) Develop several submissions from n/s because I end up there a lot.
2) However, while in n/s try to "crush" the guy underneath into a tap.
3) After 30 seconds of the "judo crush", if it's not working, go for one of my newly aquired subs or change to another position.

I'm going with the guys who are saying a pin can be a good self defense technique. A pin is prefered for bouncers, security guards, dealing with the drunk friend, etc. because it controls the guy without the liability. It has sd limitations just like everything else. In a one on one street defense situation (with a third party dialing 911), I'd say it's the lowest risk, most efficient way of handling a guy who wants to thump you. Now I know it doesn't work this way in every neighborhood, but in my town the average response time of law enforcement to 911 call is under 3 minutes. Most of us could hold the average street thug in a solid crushing pin for that time period if we managed to get them in the hold down in the first place. And n/s is possibley better than any of the pins because you can tie up their arms, pin their heads to the sidewalk, and most of your body is in a relatively safe position away from them.

The reason I emphasized that I was a judo guy had only to do with the fact that I always train to make my Judo better, not my sub grappling or my bjj. I always look at stuff bjjers show me and think,"Ok, how can I tweak this to make it fit judo, spefically how will this benefit me in a judo tournament?" It's limited thinking I know, but I don't aspire to be a cage fighter or bjj expert. I want to do well in judo tournaments, bottom line. That's why a huge chunk of my grappling game is pins and turtling techniques (defensing the turtle, turning the turtle, offense from the turtle, etc), a lot of what it seems pure bjjers see as stalling or in general lame moves. I watch a guy give up a perfectly good pin to go for an iffy submission and it makes me cringe. ...and to watch someone not roll to turtle but instead give up side mount when their guard is passed just freaks me out.

It's interesting, but bad judo is good bjj and good judo is bad bjj...for the most part. Perhaps that's why we read so often in here: "I'm a bjjer and I rolled with a judo guy last night and his game sucked..." or the judoka saying "I did better than a thought I would against a bjjer..." In fact, each guy could think he owned the other guy, when in reality both were just playing by different rules...

Something to chew on.

 

[Q mystic]

Not if you've got nothing but a pin. You have to make space to strike, you have to move to submit (otherwise, he'd be tapping). If you can't make him tap with your pin, then he's not dead, and you're wasting both of yoru time.

Obviously, with BB, his buddy was not "dead from there", because once he tried something other than "crushing him" ("are you going to DO anything?" sounds distinctly different from "I AM BEING CRUSHED TO DEATH!!"), suddenly dude was on his back choking him out.



A pin doesn't finish a fight any more than a turtle protects you in a real fight.

I suppose. Maybe it is just that when, in mma, the guy has buddy in side control -lots of elbows and knees. Or NS, lots of knees. Or mount, lots of punching and elbows. All are judo holdown positions and makes me realize at the club that I have to get the hell outta there. And not ask him to 'do something'. But, in grappling you only get 3 or 4 pts and that is all. If I was on the bottom and already ahead by 8 pts, I'd wait it out for the win too.

I call it dominant position and would tell one of my students to get outta there.

Turtle worked ok for Nak vs Vovchanchin.

 

[Os3y3ris]

You're not gonna crush the guy into a tap. Ever. Cook him a bit to get him moving and get him scared and then sub him.

 

[Steeltwo]

You're not gonna crush the guy into a tap. Ever. Cook him a bit to get him moving and get him scared and then sub him.

as i've done it

you should change ever too, not very often or highly unlikely.

 

[Bubble Boy]

You're not gonna crush the guy into a tap. Ever. Cook him a bit to get him moving and get him scared and then sub him.

I've tapped people with north/ south. I've been tapped by north/south. And it's been because of "crushing", usually with a combination of the arm torqued (although not quit a true armbar / armcrank), the breathing restricted, etc.

It can happen, but I'll give you that it's pretty rare.

 

[thecas]

first place. And n/s is possibley better than any of the pins because you can tie up their arms, pin their heads to the sidewalk, and most of your body is in a relatively safe position away from them.
on.

Reverse scarfhold is much better. for SD. you can easier transition into other pins and your range of vision is better. Also, you can faster get to your feet and run if needed

 

[Mirada]

We don't really need two pages for this. The logic is very simple.

In anything but a judo tournament "pinning" is just another word for "stalling." -> You weren't in a Judo tournament. -> We all know it's retarded to stall in training.

 

[bammann45]

I still want to know whether he fought hard to get out of the control rather than just whining.
If he didn't, then he is the bitch and you are lame for stalling.