Ok. Am I being a b**tch in this situation...

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Bubble Boy, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    I'll keep it as short and to the point as I can:

    Visting my good buddies submission grappling club. Him and I roll, and after nearly being submited by him a couple times, I pass his guard and get a real solid north / south on him. And I mean solid: I've got an arm tied up and I'm crushing his face and chest with my chest. He ain't going any where. So...being a judo guy I just settle in and plan on holding this pin for eternity. About 30 seconds go by and he starts to say " Are going to fucking do anything?" He says this kind of things a few times more and then finally says, "If your not going to do anything, then I'll just tap." Mind you he's saying this while being squished under a really solid hold down. So I go for an armbar just to get something moving... the end result being me getting rear naked choked to tap out.

    Now, I ain't whining about getting tapped. Me and this guy are friends, so it ain't personal. If him and I rolled 10 times he'd win 5 and I'd win 5 and we both know that. We're very evenly matched.

    I'm wondering whose more of a bitch? Me for just being satisfied to hold a pin (I should have not listened to him) for 5 minutes, or him for wanting to press the action. To him a pin is doing NOTHING. It is a transition move. To me it's an end in itself.

    So would it be lame in your guy's eyes if I were to just hold him in a pin and not go for any subs the next time we roll? Or anytime I roll at a BJJ or Grappling gym for that matter? Is my approach lame, or legit?
     
  2. vanguard_anon

    vanguard_anon Clever user title

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    I don't hold a dominate position like that forever unless I'm learning something from it. That happens in the rare situation that I have a dominate position on somebody much better than me.

    If it's even I'll keep it moving.
     
  3. furycrow

    furycrow White Belt

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    If you guys decide to just go for pins, go for pins. If you are going for subs, go for the subs. In general the goal of BJJ is to get a submission, not just sit there in a pin. If you go to any other BJJ or grappling gyms and just hold a position, they'll think it's pretty lame.
     
  4. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    If it's BJJ you're rolling, I think that's pretty lame, particularly since with the gi you can get locked up in positions where you can't move -- North/South being practically the worst. If trying to completely immobilize your opponent was the point, even if they aren't subbed/hurt, BJJ would be a very different sport. In Judo it's a much bigger accomplishment because you get so little time to pin. In BJJ/sub wrestling? Not nearly so much. The idea being that it's supposed to be a real fight, and in a real fight, who gives a damn if he holds you for 10 seconds or 10 hours? The point of the submission sport is to damage/stop the other guy for good, and control is a tool to that end. If he's just going to pop up when you let go, continuing to fight on, that misses much of the point.
     
  5. Weonlywonsixtwo

    Weonlywonsixtwo Banned Banned

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    I would get pretty annoyed if someone just pins and sits there. But I mean that would make your friend work hard, to escape north and south. I mean if your friend is any good at bjj he'd be able to escape. I'd hold the position if it was really dominant. But NS isnt too dominant you shoulda slipped the mount. Hope that was helpful.
     
  6. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    Everything that's been said has been helpful so far and kind of what I feared the impression would be of my "tactics." But Weonlywonsixtwo managed to articulate something that I wasn't: shouldn't a guy my equal be able to eventually work his way out of my pin (even though I had a real nice one going). Why give up and say "Hell, if you aren't going to work a sub then I'm just going to tap." ? Working his way out of pins should be a learning experience for him, as you're saying Weonlywonsixtwo. And a learning experience for the guy doing the pinning, right?

    Also, a judo pin can be pretty brutal. If it's an end in itself, then the philosophy of the hold down is totally different than if it were mearly a transition move. When it's an end to itself, then the idea is to also inflict pain, not just "hold down." All of your weight crushing the head, arms torqued in painful positions, breathing restricted, etc. Pins can be brutal if you want them to.
     
  7. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    he should have tried to escape. whats he going to do in a tournament if he's up against a wrestler or judoka who just wants to take him down and hold him there and win on points? if you watch adcc, all good jiu jitsu guys have techniques for breaking a really tight pin...gotta practice that shit
     
  8. Soid

    Soid Renegade of Funk

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    Hmm.. If that happened to me then I would find it lame. But I'm not your friend, and don't know you. If he knows your background then he should understand but if you guys are rolling for fun then it is lame of you (not bitch) to just sit there and hold it. Just ask him, I'm sure he thinks that it's gay when you do but I am also sure he does not think you arfe a bitch in the situation. Sorry if I'm unclear.
     
  9. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    This is a tough one. I can see both sides honestly.

    Anyone ever tapped to a pin? In your early days? I have several times. I tapped to a knee on belly about a month ago as a matter of fact, which could be considered a pin kinda sorta.

    Also, I just want to make it clear that this is not a personal knock on the guy I was rolling with, or on myself for that matter. Really it's a hypothetical question.
     
  10. Kawlinz

    Kawlinz How do I change my Custom User Title?

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    That's what you should've done if he want's a sub.

    But yeah, agree on the rules before rolling and what you guys are trying to accomplish. Right now you're both playing by different rules it seems.
     
  11. Jason Pair

    Jason Pair Amateur Fighter

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    Him for bitching, probably wanted to try and get you to let go. Get a good hold down to control your buddy and setup the sub, however once you start opening up and going for more shit you'd be suprised how quick you'll improve.
     
  12. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Fear the Menanite!!!

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    Now...I take Judo once a week to compliment my BJJ...a blackbelt Judoka had me pinned...and he outweighed me by about 80 lbs...while uncomfertable...I definatly did not feel like I was in any real danger...just bored/frustrated...I eventually escaped after about 4 minutes of work.
     
  13. GracieMMABarra

    GracieMMABarra Word.

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    do what you got to do. I mean if you dont feel comfortable submitting him then hold and think. I find it lame for him to complain, he should of pressed more not you. Also thats how tourneys are, you rack up points and if you happen to get the sub then goodjob. Play your game not his.
     
  14. blanko

    blanko Guest

    welll it depends onwhat you were doing. Where you waiting for an opening or were you just pinning him with no intentions to even try to submit him? Remember, you went to a Submission grappling club. How would you feel if a visitor pulled guard all the time at your judo club?
     
  15. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    blanko, I was going to pin him until he began to wiggle free. If that took 3 or 4 minutes then so be it. My thoughts were to wait for him to really get frantic maybe and then he'd do something stupid. But honestly I would have been content to hold him there. He was telling me, from his fucked position, to do something as if holding him there was not really doing anything. I see some irony in that. I'm still torn on this one guys...
     
  16. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

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    There's pins & there's pins. A judoka can make a pin SO uncomfortable that you tap anyway - being from pressure or being generally smothered....

    But I figure there is not a huge point in holding a pin endlessly, especially in a BJJ environment but EVEN in a judo environment (the exception being if you have your hands full just maintaining the pin).

    Hold until you've made your point - then transition to another position or incrementally work towards a sub.

    Still - I'd like to see that in a competition result: WINNER: BubbleBoy by Boredom Submission
     
  17. bammann45

    bammann45 Yellow Belt

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    ehhh, its better for you to be active and try stuff from holds.
    That being said, he is a bitch... he shoulda tried to escape or died
    trying... what happened is he panicked a little, got a little claustro then
    suffocated and finally took the easy way out. what if he was being attacked?
    or if it was a competition, would he just give up?
     
  18. ARIS

    ARIS Brown Belt

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    You guys are Rolling and training. But not in Judo class, i don't think you did something wrong, but if you train sub-grappling or BJJ you are supose to try and do something more than just pin a guy down. In a fight pining the guy down is great, but in training BJJ or Grappling you are suposed to roll around and try submit the guy not hold him down for ever, unless you are working pin escapes... Anyways in BJJ comeptition or Grappling the ref would tell you to move and try do something. If you are good in pining a guy down then in Training try working something that you are not that good :)
     
  19. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    I honestly think there's 2 ways to pin. One is just to control the guy on the bottom. That way is not very uncomfortable really for the guy being pinned. The other way has been done to me numorous times in Judo dojos. It's the pin of "pain." Where the top guy is simply squashing the shit out of you and the more you move the more the pin gets cinched in and the more the pain increases. In my early days I tapped occasionally to pins like this, especially when gassing after a long night of grappling. Having a dude pressing hard on your face, ribs, stomach, whatever can induce a tap out occasionally when you already can barely catch your breath.

    BTW, you probably know this, but for those who don't: in judo if you pin someone for 25 seconds you win the whole freakin' match. It's over, you win. That's why so many judoka try to perfect the hold down..
     
  20. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    Yeah, this sounds about right on to me judogido. And yeah, I'd take the Boredom Submission win if I could in a tournament. Hell yeah.
     

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